What's the big deal with point buy?

[MoogleEmpMog]

I don't think anyone has every said "increases powergaming." My contention is that it encouages powergaming. It by no means guarantees or increases it in an absolute sense, merely provides yet one more encouragement to the player to plan out his character from day 1.

First of all, 'encouraging' and 'increasing' are essentially the same thing, provided you're talking about groups of people and not individuals. 'Guaranteeing' is in no way the same thing as either 'encouraging' or 'increasing.' By contrast, 'increasing in an absolute sense' is pretty much true of anything that is 'encouraged,' provided you use a large enough sample size. If you 'encourage' something, you will 'increase' it if you 'encourage' enough people because there will invevitably be those who respond to the 'encouragement.'

Second, what does planning a character have to do with powergaming? You can play a character who will suck horribly at every level, or a character who will be really powerful at every level. You can advance a character impulsively who will suck horribly (and this will often happen with certain classes, especially fighter), and you can advance a character impulsively who will be on par with a planned character (provided the impulsively advanced character is a divine spellcaster).

Planning or not planning is a playstyle issue that largely boils down to whether one's expectations are primarily derived from the D&D of yore (or D&D taught by players whose expectations derive from same) or from almost any other game (pen and paper or electronic), book or other media.

Incidentally, I will be using the organic roll method from the DMG for my next campaign, although players will probably be allowed to permanently spend action points to reroll an ability or swap a pair of abilities.

So in addition to completely basing the power level of the PCs on randomness, you also allow them to (largely randomly) nerf themselves forever in yet another way! I'm sure there's enjoyment to be gotten from this, just as I'm sure there's enjoyment to be gotten from 'grinding' in a MMORPG; what, exactly that enjoyment is, remains a mystery. :\

 

[Cedric]

So in addition to completely basing the power level of the PCs on randomness, you also allow them to (largely randomly) nerf themselves forever in yet another way! I'm sure there's enjoyment to be gotten from this, just as I'm sure there's enjoyment to be gotten from 'grinding' in a MMORPG; what, exactly that enjoyment is, remains a mystery. :\

I'll take that over the cookie cutter repetition of playing the same stat block over and over. Sure, if you're new to the game or don't play that often...that's fine. But I've been playing long enough to have run through just about every concept that reasonably comes to mind.

Because of the years invested and the experience...as time goes by I appreciate the random aspects of the game more and more.

When I want static character generation, I play a different RPG.

 

[xnrdcorex]

Isn't the "point" of point-buy so that all characters within the party can be on equal grounds as far as stats? Everyone will know its fair and can have fun. That way one person wont end up with all 8s and another with all 18s. That may be fun or funny to roleplay once but its stupid if it happens a few times and, well, we're playing games here, games reqiure balance. Point buy balances the players with each other so their can be no jealousy/animosity/anger between them out of game/in-game in regards to one more unimportant thing.

At my game table there are allot of arguments. Good ones and bad ones. In character and out. If one person was blessed with way better stats than other people he would just be far superior to them and have not only a combat advantage but a role-playing advantage. Stats=power. I do not believe you should allow one player to "randomly" obtain vast amounts more than th-e others.

That's why point-buy is great. It makes it even and fun for everyone because they know they started on the same even grounds.

 

[Thurbane]

IMHO, both sides have their merit, but we always use rolling in our games.

Point buy just adds to the "computer game" feel of modern D&D editions - more like you are in a selection screen at the startup of a PC game. Rolling is more "organic" to me. We always have the caveat that if rolling produces a truly awful character, you can reroll. Each DM has his own definition of what consitutes awful.

But that radom element also means that a player may get lucky and roll up a character of truly heroic proportions. Other players may be a little envious, but a good DM can still run a game that shares the spotlight equally.

It also helps prevent "cookie cutter" characters, where a particular player will find the point buy or array that suits his ideal character concept and then flog it to death with every subsequent character he creates.

"Oh, another fighter with 18 STR and 18 CON, but 6 everything else. Great. You do remember how your characters keep failing every Will and Reflex save, right?"

I have absolutely no problem with point buy or array, but we will stick with rolling in our gaming group.

 

[Crothian]

If one person was blessed with way better stats than other people he would just be far superior to them and have not only a combat advantage but a role-playing advantage. Stats=power.

How do stats and power give a person an advantage of role playing?

 

[Cedric]

I keep reading these examples (when stats are rolled) of the group having a character with all bad stats and at least one character with "straight 18s".

I realize that both are exaggerations...however, in my experience, rolling for stats (depending on the method you use) has seldom produced a huge power disparrity between the characters.

Yes, there will be differences, not everyone would have the same total if you added them up "point buy" style. But the characters are more often than not close enough that no one feels left out and no one just takes over.

It may happen now and then, but that just adds to the flavor. Now and then you get the character with pretty nice stats, now and then you get the character with the so-so stats. (Most groups will not make a player take abyssmal stats).

So your argument that someone always has great stats or someone always has awful stats is a myth. It just doesn't work that way, at least not in my 15+ years of very active gaming.

But with Point Buy (unless you use a ridiculously high point buy amount) you can be certain that those little happenstances of luck that sometimes add a bit of flavor to your games via the random stats...won't happen. Everyone will be equally mediocre, good or great ...depending on the point total you select.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

But is power disparity better? I mean ... the argument states that there's no real disparity, but that the disparity that exists in the "luck" adds "flavor"?

I've BEEN the guy with the great stats. They weren't all 18s, but they were plenty high ... and the disparity REALLY DID EXIST. Everybody there who played in that game agreed that my character, and the things the GM was trying to do to "challenge" that character, directly led to the death of another character in the game. He, essentially, took a bullet meant for Das UberDwarfen and got smoked.

Heck, the GM had already purposefully nerfed my character by giving me a special background "relic weapon" made from obscure Forgotten Realms metal that cost an absolutely unbelievable sum. Left to me, I'd have taken a +1 Holy Waraxe ... I got a +1 Keen Warhammer that hit as silver and cost the same amount. (Some ability from FR that's keen for bludgeoning).

I never see rolling systems that really have a regular "average" with a benign chance for "luck". People always seem to hedge their bets in the rolling circle ... mulligans and hand-tilty-definitions for "hopeless" ... rerolling 1s or rolling two sets and taking the one you want or rolling an extra group and trading in or 5d6-drop-2. Making sure everybody has the same point-total as the guy that rolled the best. Not even "Oh, it fell off the table" cheating, which I've seen blatantly allowed at tables as well ... and, of course, there are always those crappy players that just Ho-Hum along with their not-the-best-at-the-table character and let him get killed off as quickly as possible to roll up another one hoping for Das Ubercharacter.

It's just human nature that, rolling, everybody there is hoping he's the guy that gets "lucky" and gets to play the character who is better than everybody else's character for that campaign. Those bet-hedging rolling systems lets everybody feel like they're special ... and usually somebody is ... not as big a disparity as my character had, which has, I freely admit, happened only one time ... but there's usually AT LEAST one guy who has, added up point-style, 3-4 more points than everybody else.

It would be an interesting thing, I think, to have numbers in a hat ... like -3, +1, -1, +2 or whatever, and an equal number of +/-0 ... and play point buy and everybody gets to draw out of the hat and their point total is adjusted by their luck "at the hat". Same general idea. Luck=Flavor, right?

I still maintain that a crappy player is a crappy player with dice or point buy. And that a good player is going to have fun and be successfull doing whatever.

For a weekend bash-fest dungeon-plunge I think it would be great to play a totally randomized game. Nobody gets any choice about their character ... before the game the GM makes pregens with strict 3d6-in-order and rolls randomly for treasure for each character. Then they're numbered on the back, placed face down on the table before the session and everybody draws a folded piece of paper from a hat with a number. Especially if there are at least 50% more characters than players so that there's bound to be a gem or two and a stinker or two.

--fje

 

[Cedric]

I never see rolling systems that really have a regular "average" with a benign chance for "luck". People always seem to hedge their bets in the rolling circle ... mulligans and hand-tilty-definitions for "hopeless" ... rerolling 1s or rolling two sets and taking the one you want or rolling an extra group and trading in or 5d6-drop-2. Making sure everybody has the same point-total as the guy that rolled the best. Not even "Oh, it fell off the table" cheating, which I've seen blatantly allowed at tables as well ... and, of course, there are always those crappy players that just Ho-Hum along with their not-the-best-at-the-table character and let him get killed off as quickly as possible to roll up another one hoping for Das Ubercharacter.--fje

If you have to use a certain method of character generation to regulate the behavior of your players, then you have problems that go way above and beyond Point Buy vs. Rolling.

My proclamations in favor of rolling for stats assume that you play with a group of honest, skilled, respectable players who are able to enjoy the game without trying to create unreasonable advantages for themselves. It also helps a lot if they are able to enjoy the game from a position of advantage or disadvantage.

If you're only going to play with a group a few times, don't know the players well or have reason to doubt their honesty or ability, by all means use methods such as point buy to try to provide an atmosphere of honesty.

 

[Nellisir]

Everyone will be equally mediocre, good or great ...depending on the point total you select.

Everyone's stats, you mean. Putting the emphasis on the character, where it belongs.

 

[Cedric]

Everyone's stats, you mean. Putting the emphasis on the character, where it belongs.

Many people seem to be taking the standpoint that stats matter more than anything...and using that position as an argument against allowing rolled stats and requiring point buy.