What's the difference between D20 Fantasy and D&D?

[M.L. Martin]

The only real numbers I have, from the TSR 1990 catalog:

The 2E PHB sold over 300,000 copies by the end of 1989.

The 2E DMG sold over 250,000 in the same time frame.

With all due respect, I'm not sure Gary's a reliable source on this--he was on the outside looking in and sounds rather embittered, after all.

Matthew L. Martin

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

The 2E PHB sold over 300,000 copies by the end of 1989.

The 2E DMG sold over 250,000 in the same time frame.

*nods*

There were 1e modules that sold a quarter of a million copies, never mind core rulebooks, so to me, those figures seem consistent with the idea that 2e halved 1e's popularity.

 

[M.L. Martin]

*nods*

There were 1e modules that sold a quarter of a million copies, never mind core rulebooks, so to me, those figures seem consistent with the idea that 2e halved 1e's popularity.

Timeframe, though. Those 1E modules had up to 12 years to amass those numbers. The numbers I gave are just for the first eight months of 2E's lifespan.

Thus, they're really not much use, since we have no real context for them. But they're all I've got.

Matthew L. Martin

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Only to the people that use it.

To me D&D is a way of playing, and d20 is a ruleset.

'Bout sums it up. I am fairly vague in my use of the terms - When I am comparing products by WotC to products by third party publishers I will say D&D for the WotC products and D20 for the third party products. But I buy both, and am often happier with the third party products. (And kind of miss the 'glut' of earlier years, a lot of good stuff came out.)

When preparing a campaign on the other hand I save the term D20 Fantasy for games and supplements that use the core mechanic, but change substantial areas of the rules. (Elements of Magic Revised is not D&D to me, but it is darned good D20 fantasy.) Some I waffle on, I have not yet decided if the Iron Kingdoms tinkers with the mechanics enough to be a different system in my mind.

The Auld Grump

 

[BroccoliRage]

I really hate to do this but...QFT!

Will you be my friend?

 

[BroccoliRage]

The band formerly known as Metallica is now properly known as Selloutica. Just wanted to throw that in.

CountryAlterniNumetalica.

Nice to see fellow fan of the heavier side of music around. Check out www.snakenet.com, bud.

d20 is not an inferior game system, when I (and others) poke fun at it it's supposed to be good natured. Over a year ago, this would not be true in my case, but folks mature. If you were to make jokes about 1st level Elves or the such, I would probably grin; good natured ribbing is good for the soul.

Whether or not the game is similiar enough to be called what its designers want to call it is not a judgement on its worth. Again, those who choose to take offense at opinions that are as mild as the ones stated here should really examine what oit is that's bothering them. If I look down on d20 so vehemently, why do I use it regularly for Sci Fi games? The only genres I don't use d20 for are fantasy, western, and horror. It's my go-to system when I want some pulp or sci fi, and if they make a western supplement better than Boot Hill, I'll switch to that.

I come to this website to read, and discuss. I'm trying to clarify the break in communication. I also contribute freely to Dragonsfoot, lurk at K&K and the Acaeum, and partakein alot of webgroups.

As far as recruiting new players to my games...eh. Another member at this site has something interesting in thier signature, something to the effect of "I'll play 3e, just not DM it." Most of the time, ENworld is fun site to mine for ideas, discuss role playing preferences with a wide variety of folks, and kid with each other. LAtely, it's been a bit on the sensitive side. Let's all just cool it.

If you choose to read implied snobbery into what's being said, I fail to see who that is anybody's problem but yours. If you think that those of us saying it are such twits and morons and meanies, why would you care what we say at all?

To be honest, d20 players aren't exactly on the recieving end of any boots here. We're not in front of Woolworth's, it isn't the 60's, and you aren't Rosa bloody Parks, the dramatics are getting silly. And neither are we, it's all just opinion. We aren't dropping the N-bomb here, we're simply disagreeing with what a system is being calleed. You say tom-ay-to, we say tom-ah-to. You know what we are talking about, and no offense is meant at all. Such a mild thing to say. IF we wanted to be mean and disruptive, why would go to the effort of being polite and concise in our decision. Speaking for my self, if I want to hurt somebody, I'm not polite about it; I go for the throat. I'm baffled by the idea of someone actually getting thier feelings hurt over something so...inoccuous...

Tom-ay-to, To-mah-to
Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to,
d20 Fantasy, Third Edition Dungeons And Dragons,
LET'S CALL THE WHOLE THING OFF!!!

 

[Raven Crowking]

Then the analogy still is accurate. The Aston Martin, despite your opinion, is still an Aston Martin. Even if they decided to completely reimagine it as a little red scooter. YOu'd be accurate to say, it does not look like the old design of the Aston Martin, but you'd be inccurate saying its not an Aston Martin. Just like with the Aston Marton, we have little say so in the actual facts. I can believe my brothers a little green frog, but factually he is still a human being. 3.e is dungeons and dragons as factually designed by WOTC.

You are attempting to say that if something has future editions, it is no longer considered the product of the first edition, which, would mean that anything any company ever revised is no longer the same product, from cars, to games to televisions. Is monopoly not monopoly because the latest edition has modern places? Is a computer not a computer because it doesn't have a 5.25 drive anymore?

Nostalgia is one thing but it should never be confused with cold hard fact

I think that 3e is D&D, and that most (though not all) of the "innovations" in the system are 1e and/or 2e mechanics given a new look and a spit shine.

Nonetheless, I disagree with the above because the meanings and definitions of words are never "cold hard fact". Rather, the meanings of words change with the relationship of the speaker to the object being spoken about. Legalese and scientific notation exist to remove, insofar as possible, the subjectivity of language. However, the people who are saying that 3e isn't D&D are not talking about the legal meanings of words; they are talking about the relationship they have with the game system to which the term is legally applied.

I call my mass of houserules "D&D", and it is pretty far removed from the core 3e experience. Far enough that some folks might claim it ain't the same animal at all. Doesn't affect what I call it.


RC

 

[BroccoliRage]

I think that 3e is D&D, and that most (though not all) of the "innovations" in the system are 1e and/or 2e mechanics given a new look and a spit shine.

Nonetheless, I disagree with the above because the meanings and definitions of words are never "cold hard fact". Rather, the meanings of words change with the relationship of the speaker to the object being spoken about. Legalese and scientific notation exist to remove, insofar as possible, the subjectivity of language. However, the people who are saying that 3e isn't D&D are not talking about the legal meanings of words; they are talking about the relationship they have with the game system to which the term is legally applied.

I call my mass of houserules "D&D", and it is pretty far removed from the core 3e experience. Far enough that some folks might claim it ain't the same animal at all. Doesn't affect what I call it.


RC

And it shouldn't, Raven. That's been my whole point; preferences aren't what's being attacked.

 

[Odhanan]

I understand "d20 Fantasy" as an RPG fantasy where your character gains levels, i.e. a heroic fantasy in nature where heroes get much better over time with experience, without the specifics of the "D&D Fantasy", with the Cleric who heals, the Fighter who fights in contact, the Wizard staying in the rear firing spells, and the Thief disarming traps.

"d20 Fantasy" is easier said than done/designed properly, mind you.

 

[Aaron L]

The band formerly known as Metallica is now properly known as Selloutica. Just wanted to throw that in.

Actually, I am very tempted to agree with this...