What's the dump-stat of the modern day work-force?

[Umbran]

On a less meta note, however, it is naive to think that Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma are somehow less prevalent now than they were at any point in the past. If people are dumb now, it means everyone is the past was just as dumb (on the whole, of course).

This assumes that what these stats represent is entirely genetic - that development cannot impact them, and that nothing about how you grow up matters, such that changes in society cannot be reflected in what individuals woudl have when mapped to stats.

While trying to map real-world people to D&D stats is, at best, an endeavor fraught with pitfalls, I don't accept that model. I think there are large learned aspects to all the stats that are not directly linked to specific skills. Of course, that means that I don't think the D&D method of changing or advancing stats models the real world well at all.

My observation of people leads me to a sad, rather than cynical, conclusion that for the modern American, Wisdom is the dump stat. The lack of common sense, ability to accurately observe their world, and exert a bit of willpower is depressing.

 

[Celebrim]

I think the better question is, which stat isn't a dump stat. Here's how I see it working...

8s across the board, and a +2 to one stat based on position.

Ok, this isn't the first time this sentiment is going to come up, and I'm going to have to call 'bogus'. If the average is 8, it can't be '10.5'.

Contrast this dispargement of the general public with the sort of stats that EnWorld members give themselves when asked to stat themselves. When we are asked to stat ourselves, about 50% of the people here claim that they have no stat under 12 and several people without irony I recall giving themselves no stat under 15. Do you really think we are pulling the average up that much?

a) I've worked every job from landscaping for minimum wage to working as a reseach assistant in a labratory of a major university. I've sipped cocktails with the high and mighty and I've sat down and talked with the homeless. I've worked construction, purchasing, accounting, sales, engineering, academic research, secretarial, delivery driver, janitorial, etc. I've worked with the smartest and stupidiest people you are going to find. This whole 'common folk are sheeple' bit is not my experience with people, and if you haven't got the background to make the claim don't go disparging people you don't know. My experience is that 'average people' are pretty darn complex - quite often in ways that D&D simply doesn't model. For example, I remember working with this old guy who initially struck me as not being that bright of a bulb because he needed my help adding two digit numbers. He was barely holding down a near minimum wage job (for that matter, at the time, so was I). One day though I somehow mentioned a book, and he started talking about the themes of the book (which I was astounded he had read) in a manner which suggested he knew and understood the book as well as I did. As I began to talk with him, I realized that he had read everything I had read, and held opinions I valued as highly as my own. He wasn't stupid - he was a genious - but he was 'learning disabled' when it came to math. He wasn't any less bright than some lit professors I'd had in college, but he never had the means to be that.

That's been pretty typical of my experience. Up close, people are alot less easy to categorize than they are from a distance. Alot of the wisest things people have ever said to me came from people I never thought of as having much wisdom. Ordinary rednecks turned out to have more world experience than wealthy dilletante aristocrats (to say nothing of me), because they'd been in the army, worked as missionaries, worked as engineers overseas, or worked as itinerate construction laborers across half the world back in the '50's or 60's whereas the wealthy guy that thought he was sophisticated had never actually lived in any other culture - he'd just lived in tourist areas where he largely was taking his culture with him. Going to the beach in Mexico is not the same as living as a Mexican in rural Mexico. Living in Italy on sabatical doesn't give you quite the same understanding of Italy as working as a migrant farm worked in Italy. I've met ditchdiggers (literally) with PhD's (in the sciences no less). Be careful in assuming that your experience is unique, special, or unusually valuable compared to everyone else.

So the problem isn't that average people are stupid, inexperienced, unwise, rude or whatever - its mainly that we here at EnWorld aren't nearly as above average as we think we are. This whole High School-ish nerdish defence mechanism of telling ourselves how special we are compared to the normal people really needs to go.

b) Why would you think you could tell what the dump stat of people in the modern day work-force was, if you didn't have any basis of comparison with people outside the modern day work-force? If you think people are inoridinately unwise or stupid, to whom in your personal first person experience are you comparing them? If you think Americans are particularly unwise, you need to live elsewhere for a while. It's just people. Once you know them, broad classification gets difficult.

 

[Umbran]

Ok, this isn't the first time this sentiment is going to come up, and I'm going to have to call 'bogus'. If the average is 8, it can't be '10.5'.

Contrast this dispargement of the general public with the sort of stats that EnWorld members give themselves when asked to stat themselves. When we are asked to stat ourselves, about 50% of the people here claim that they have no stat under 12 and several people without irony I recall giving themselves no stat under 15. Do you really think we are pulling the average up that much?

Well, the old saying goes - 80% of people think they are above-average.

For one stat (Strength), there is an objective measure (lift/carrying capacity) to which a person can go to measure where they sit on the scale. All of the others are pretty fuzzily defined, at best, so this whole process needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It is more about the thought process, and what can impact the distributions, than about what the dump stat really is, IMHO.

However, let us consider one major point - the average stat within the game is something like 10.5. It is possible that we, out here in the real world, may not match the game world's averages. The game world is perhaps rather more rough and tough and mean than our world, you know, such that weaklings like us would get killed off...

 

[jmucchiello]

When we are asked to stat ourselves, about 50% of the people here claim that they have no stat under 12 and several people without irony I recall giving themselves no stat under 15. Do you really think we are pulling the average up that much?

There's a reason self-evaluation is inaccurate. One of my favorite articles on the net.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Derro, those of us who have offered Charisma as the dump stat are those that work in public relations or otherwise have jobs that take us into contact with a great variety of people. If anyone is capable of make that judgement, it is those like us who have the opportunity to interact with many people on a daily basis. We are not saying Charisma is not OUR dump stat as well, that is a judgement for others.

Working in a call center, I'm going to disagree.

What you're interpreting as a stat penalty on the part of the average person is vastly more likely due to a circumstance modifier, like "already in a bad mood and now I've got his bill WTF?" or "it's late, I'm tired, and I don't care any more." It is also commonly possible to improve the modifier via your own interaction skills; I've found that being friendly and pleasant to my callers is exceedingly helpful, and I can sometimes even hear their reaction move from Unfriendly to Friendly.

Also, skill ranks matter. It's entirely possible that a lot of people don't bother taking many ranks in social skills, which makes interaction harder and less pleasant. Every interaction is at least a two-way street, since there're at least two people involved, both rolling skill checks (my encounter with a caller is the caller's encounter with me), so if both people flub, things can get bad.

Brad

 

[Tinker Gnome]

Here are my stats.

STR: 30
DEX: 30
CON: 30
INT: 60
WIS: 60
CHA: 60

 

[Roland55]

It is definitely wisdom.

You beat me to it, sir.

There are many very intelligent people in the work-force, but very few wise people.

Wisdom scores above 10 are rarer than hen's teeth, people.

 

[jdrakeh]

Strength for most people.

I agree, at least for desk jobs and such. Lemme' tell you, the most strenuous thing that I lift at work is a pen.

 

[0bsolete]

I would say constitution.

One thing I would like to note though: in this day and age in America, physical strength and constitution are not vital to day to day life. In another age or another world, yes, those things are vital. True, those malnourished African children might be able to run and climb trees like ninja, but they need to run and climb trees like ninja if they want to have an edge in life. I assure you those children can't type at 65 words per minute, set up a powerpoint presentation or file their own taxes because they don't need to. We focus on what we are most likely going to survive on, our minds. They focus on their primary need, their bodies. I would not say that we are intrinsically inferior to them because we can't lift as much or run as long and to be honest, I think that in some ways, it might be a good thing the way things are. No, people don't eat as healthy and they die a little earlier than the other Americans. They live longer than the African children, but not as long as the most fit of the Americans either. Yes, I could indeed spend 2 hours a night at the gym on the weekdays and be in far better shape. I would be able to run faster, longer and I could lift more. I might be able to climb trees in a tenth of the time it takes me now. But at what point in my life will I need to climb a tree as quick as I can? Or run faster than anybody else for 20 minutes straight? I won't give up just over 5% of my life (assuming 10 hours a week) to something which I take no pleasure in, when that time could be spent with my family, or preparing myself for upcoming challenges that I am more likely to face or even just enjoying the short life I have.

Yes, Americans may be less healthy physically than other countries. Yes, we may not be living as many years as we could. But we don't have to have those things to survive. I'm honestly proud that we have gotten to the point where a person can live despite being overweight and weak. I'm proud we have gotten to the point where we have the luxury of spending our resources to help others, instead of vitally needing them just to live another day. Call the overweight problem a sign of human degradation, I call it a sign that humans have improved themselves.

 

[Ourph]

On a less meta note, however, it is naive to think that Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma are somehow less prevalent now than they were at any point in the past. If people are dumb now, it means everyone is the past was just as dumb (on the whole, of course).

Exactly correct, Wis is humanity's dump stat and has been since the dawn of time. If nothing else, the intarweb is proof that, despite great advances in technology and education, humanity as a whole still retains a strong urge toward indescriminate poo-flinging.