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What's the most significant difference you've found with 4e from 3e?
- Thread starter MerricB
- Start date
tomBitonti
Hero
But, what was written was "How easy it is to design an adventure/dungeon...". I agree that what was outlined is one way to implement the design. I do find telling how easy it is to too quickly step away from the ideas phase to the implementation phase. For me, the heart of the system is the how well the system helps me to express dramatic stories.
That leads me to a question ... how well does 4E help to design adventures/dungeons? I like to ask the question in this form: Is the 4E MM easy to mine for adventure ideas? Does it have more and better ideas than the 3.5E MM? Or, say, Denizens of Avendu or the Monsternomicon?
Scribble
First Post
That kind of depends on certain things... Like: What do you use to "mine for ideas?"
What parts of the 3.5 MM did you routinely find inspired you?
Dragonblade
Adventurer
The biggest difference for me is the ease of DMing. The sheer joy of it again. Something I had not felt since 1st edition.
After trudging through the first series of Pathfinder modules it all crystalized for me. DMing 3e SUCKS. Maybe it doesn't suck for you, but for me it was torturous.
Even in a prepared module like Pathfinder I had to do a ton of prep. Every monster or NPC with a spellcasting ability had to be looked up, the spell details noted, and the ability modifier and bonus changes for buff spells all pre-calculated so that when the PCs encountered that monster or NPC, I knew all the bonuses they should have. Paizo tried doing some of the work for me, but I consistently found errors in their stat blocks. Or they would forget a spell that I thought was important. And god forbid the PCs dispelled something. What a nightmare.
Another thing that drove me nuts was them including a monster in an encounter and then instead of reprinting the stat block, they simply referenced a page number of where that monster had previously appeared. So now I had to have multiple pages marked with post-its so I could go back. Or they simply referred to stuff in the monster manual, so now I had to have multiple books opened in front of me. The adventure, the MM, and the PHB (so I could look at spells). I had to have a little side table next to me to hold everything. Such a mess.
When I DM an adventure, I should be able to run the adventure solely from the adventure itself. During play, I should NEVER have to look up a monster ability in another book. Everything I need should be self-contained in the stat block and that stat block should appear right there in the adventure in the write up for that encounter. 4e got this right. 3e was an EPIC fail.
When 4e finally came out it was like the heavens opened and angels descended. The monster stat blocks were entirely self-contained. No need to ever look anything up. The first time I ran a 4e encounter it was like a dream. I hadn't had this feeling since 1e. I felt liberated from the accounting minutiae and drudgery of 3e.
Now 4e isn't perfect. I have little quibbles here and there. For example, I think there should be a mid-combat recharge mechanic for some powers. I think some rituals should be castable in combat. But on the whole its a vast improvement.
After trudging through the first series of Pathfinder modules it all crystalized for me. DMing 3e SUCKS. Maybe it doesn't suck for you, but for me it was torturous.
Even in a prepared module like Pathfinder I had to do a ton of prep. Every monster or NPC with a spellcasting ability had to be looked up, the spell details noted, and the ability modifier and bonus changes for buff spells all pre-calculated so that when the PCs encountered that monster or NPC, I knew all the bonuses they should have. Paizo tried doing some of the work for me, but I consistently found errors in their stat blocks. Or they would forget a spell that I thought was important. And god forbid the PCs dispelled something. What a nightmare.
Another thing that drove me nuts was them including a monster in an encounter and then instead of reprinting the stat block, they simply referenced a page number of where that monster had previously appeared. So now I had to have multiple pages marked with post-its so I could go back. Or they simply referred to stuff in the monster manual, so now I had to have multiple books opened in front of me. The adventure, the MM, and the PHB (so I could look at spells). I had to have a little side table next to me to hold everything. Such a mess.
When I DM an adventure, I should be able to run the adventure solely from the adventure itself. During play, I should NEVER have to look up a monster ability in another book. Everything I need should be self-contained in the stat block and that stat block should appear right there in the adventure in the write up for that encounter. 4e got this right. 3e was an EPIC fail.
When 4e finally came out it was like the heavens opened and angels descended. The monster stat blocks were entirely self-contained. No need to ever look anything up. The first time I ran a 4e encounter it was like a dream. I hadn't had this feeling since 1e. I felt liberated from the accounting minutiae and drudgery of 3e.
Now 4e isn't perfect. I have little quibbles here and there. For example, I think there should be a mid-combat recharge mechanic for some powers. I think some rituals should be castable in combat. But on the whole its a vast improvement.
Mercule
Adventurer
I think it's more nostalgia than aging brains. I can remember several very big arguments about whether someone was standing next to a monster, trap, etc. from when I was in high school. It was a mess. I probably could have been more descriptive, though I wasn't exactly just grunting and pointing. When we started using mats in late 2e, it was like a switch was thrown for clarity.Exact same thing for me, except ages 16/33 rather than 14/31.
Crazy Jerome
First Post
Naw! Probably just out of practice. If you can't run a mile as fast as you did in high school, how much is aging body, and how much is not having run a mile in the last decade?
I had the opposite experience. I got better at running without the minis as I got older--because we have multiple couples in the group, rug rats began to appear, and it was less trouble to work without the minis than keep scale baby Godzilla from biting the head off your token. After awhile, we got pretty good at running without.
I'd say the 4E has pretty much zero material for adventure ideas. However, the 3.5 MM wasn't a lot better in that regard.
Now, in contrast to these the 2E MCs were excellent sources for adventure ideas. But that's a different topic.
ExploderWizard
Hero
Same here. There is little point in grappling with 4E rules which is why no one wants to waste actions trying. The only way to put a stop to anything is to club the source till it runs out of hit points..........and thats gonna be a while.
G'day, all!
...
So, despite all the changes to powers, classes, races, rules and the like, for me the most significant change has been the removal of the wand of cure light wounds
What's do you find the most significant change or difference between the editions? (Or you can comment on the wand, if you like.
Cheers!
G'day!
What is really funny is that in 20 years of playing DnD, we never used a Wand of Cure light wounds. So even if I were playing 4e (which I am not), I don't think I would even miss it1
I'm curious about this. How hard is it honestly to apply the same to 3E?
You can create treasure packets for 3E, and forget about rolling treasure.
You can swap out the CR system for a blanket XP system.
The rest of your points stem from the XP system. Do you really think it's impossible to alter 3E in just those two ways to solve your problems?
I ask because making those two changes is pretty close to what I have in mind for my next 3E campaign. I fail to see the problem.
Now... re-writing stat blocks into a more usable format, there I can agree with the 4E lovers. 3E stat blocks are hard to simplify.
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