D&D 5E What's the rush? Has the "here and now" been replaced by the "next level" attitude?

[Mallus]

What makes him a pirate lord though? No followers, no ship, just a half rogue half fighter with profession sailor.

Sounds like just a sailor.

Yup. I'd use that NPC as a first mate. Derren's position only makes sense if you assume a low-power 3.5e/Pathinfinder setting. In a standard one, they're the help, not a lord.

(Also, shouldn't it +8 to hit? FTR level +2, ROG level +1, DEX + 3, Focus +1, Rapier + 1 = +8. Don't mind me, I'm just trying to practice my basic 3.5e. I might be running Pathfinder again sometime soon).

 

[JamesonCourage]

What makes him a pirate lord though? No followers, no ship, just a half rogue half fighter with profession sailor.

Sounds like just a sailor.

Not sure about "Pirate Lord"... how many ships is that? At the beginning of 3rd level, the expected wealth by level is 2,700gp. If he buys a keelboat just inside of 3rd level (for 3,000gp), he should have time to potentially take over some more ships by level 4.

That is, unless the DM is sticking hard by the guidelines, at which point the DM is blocking the PC from acquiring more ships until he's "supposed" to be able to afford it according to the guidelines. If this is done, he can probably have 4 ships by level 6 (when he can also take Leadership).

If, on the other hand, the PCs can acquire more ships as determined by their actual actions (and the DM doesn't completely block them by refusing to deviate from the wealth guidelines), then they could achieve their goal much sooner (see @Celebrim's write-up on this a few pages ago).

 

[Mallus]

And when asked about this something your only answer was "multiple ships and spellcaster henchman", nothing which implies personal power.

In 3e? Of course it does. Loyal specialist henchmen either implies a PC with the Leadership Feat (min. level 6th), or it implies the money to hire them (or a strong reputation, which also can't be divorced from level in D&D). A squadron of ships requires a safe harbor (a secure one, in the case of pirates) and the resources to maintain/repair/equip them. Recall that expected wealth-by-level limits are core concept under 3e.

Again, you are hiding and then moving goalposts.

My position has been pretty consistent. Using a low-level character to represent a "pirate lord" is a poor choice. Older editions of D&D would use 8th level+ characters. As did a recent Pathfinder AP.

Would you care to explain how this is goalpost shifting? Or would you rather just keep accusing me of it?

I ask you, is in your games the king always the highest level character in the entire kingdom and the mayor the highest level character in a city?

Always? No. Frequently, yes. It's a classic D&D-ism. Dates back at least to the 1st edition Greyhawk guide, where a lot of the national leaders were high-level characters, and you're average small-town mayor was a retired fighter around 5th or 6th level, with a +2 longsword under his bed.

But more importantly, that's irrelevant. A pirate lord isn't analogous to the king. Kings get their authority from the machinery of an entire socio-political system. Pirates gets their authority from, well, not that.

A better analogy might be a low-born general who serves the king. Someone who fought their way up the ranks and proved their merit and fitness for command, i.e. another character who isn't low level, either.

So why must the captain be the highest level character on the ship/fleet and why must the character be 8th level or higher?

Please recall I never said "must". I said it makes sense to represent a "pirate lord" using a higher level character, particularly under 3e. It's a bit easier to rationalize under AD&D, since the absence of a formal skill system effectively decouples level from skills.

I really try to understand your fixation on minimum levels for social titles...

Hint: it comes from over two decades of playing & running D&D.

...but considering you so far could not offer any explanation my only guess is that you do not know yourself why you insist on them and only do so because "it has always been that way".

Well, you're certainly free to get that from what I wrote. It's a... unique reading, I'll give you that!

 

[Hussar]

Aeral Flynn Rogie 2 / Fighter 2 Chaotic Neutral Human

Str: 13
Dex: 16
Con: 10
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 12

HP: 32
AC: 18 (Chain Shirt & Amulet) 19 (Dodge)
Fort: + 4 Ref: + 7 Will: + 3

Rapier + 1: + 10 to hit, 1d6 + 2 (+ 1d6 if caught flat footed)

Feats: Weapon Finesse (Rapier), Dodge, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Persuasive, Iron Will

Skills: Balance: + 5, Bluff: + 10, Climb:+ 3 , Diplomacy: + 8, Gather Information:+ 3, Intimidate: + 10, Listen:+ 4, Profession (Sailor): + 8, Search: + 6, Spot:+ 5, Sense Motive:+ 5, Swim: + 3, Use Rope: + 5,

Abilities: Sneak Attack + 1d6, Evasion, Trapfinding

Items: Cloak of Resistance + 1, Amulet of Nat Armor + 1

Here is a quick pirate lord I threw together just using the 3.5 PHB.

So, your Pirate Lord (and how did this morph to lord and not just captain?), captures a ship. On the ship is 5 tons of cotton and 5 tons of tobacco. Your ship can only carry 5 tons of booty. Which do you take?

Your Pirate Lord sails out of sight of land. This requires a DC 25 Survival check in order not to get lost. Your Pirate Lord cannot actually EVER sail out of sight of land.

Your Pirate Lord reaches the campaign world's version of Tortuga to sell his ill gotten booty. The merchant offers you a price for your cargo. Is the merchant lying or not?

A pirate lord that cannot actually pilot a ship, and has no idea of the value of his cargo and can be cheated at will by every fence out there is unlikely to remain a pirate captain for very long.

 

[JamesonCourage]

So, your Pirate Lord (and how did this morph to lord and not just captain?), captures a ship. On the ship is 5 tons of cotton and 5 tons of tobacco. Your ship can only carry 5 tons of booty. Which do you take?

I imagine a Profession (Pirate) check could clear this up, based on 3.5 RAW (I posted it last page). DM just has to decide if that Profession is alright to take.

Your Pirate Lord sails out of sight of land. This requires a DC 25 Survival check in order not to get lost. Your Pirate Lord cannot actually EVER sail out of sight of land.

Not without rolling.

On top of that, that Survival check DC is not in the PHB (that I recall, but it's been a long time), so I can't comment too much on your source. If the DM determined that was "Challenging" he could rule that DC 20 (and the PC could take a 10 and get it). If the DC was 25 (and my tweaked captain can take a 10 and get a 21 at level 4), then good tools for +2 and someone assisting means he can take a 10 and hit it. Which means he could consistently sail out of sight of land.

Your Pirate Lord reaches the campaign world's version of Tortuga to sell his ill gotten booty. The merchant offers you a price for your cargo. Is the merchant lying or not?

You may not know this off-hand (it doesn't sound like Profession will help here). The Profession would likely let you appraise the value of common goods, though, so even if the guy isn't lying, you would probably know whether or not he's giving you what they're worth.

A pirate lord that cannot actually pilot a ship, and has no idea of the value of his cargo and can be cheated at will by every fence out there is unlikely to remain a pirate captain for very long.

Based on the 3.5 RAW I posted, I would think that Profession (Pirate) (or at the very least Sailor or Merchant) would get a lot of this.

[sarcasm]Then again, maybe Hussar is just used to screwing his players at every turn by interpreting things in the worst possible way?[/sarcasm]

 

[Hussar]

I imagine a Profession (Pirate) check could clear this up, based on 3.5 RAW (I posted it last page). DM just has to decide if that Profession is alright to take.

Not without rolling.

On top of that, that Survival check DC is not in the PHB (that I recall, but it's been a long time), so I can't comment too much on your source. If the DM determined that was "Challenging" he could rule that DC 20 (and the PC could take a 10 and get it). If the DC was 25 (and my tweaked captain can take a 10 and get a 21 at level 4), then good tools for +2 and someone assisting means he can take a 10 and hit it. Which means he could consistently sail out of sight of land.

Presuming, of course, you can actually take 10 on the check. And, of course, there are no actual penalties here, like rain. But, ok, fair enough, you got this one.

You may not know this off-hand (it doesn't sound like Profession will help here). The Profession would likely let you appraise the value of common goods, though, so even if the guy isn't lying, you would probably know whether or not he's giving you what they're worth.

Isn't that what the Appraise skill is for? And Sense Motive? Are we now going to simply replace skills with Profession? Why on earth would a sailor (Or pirate for that matter) know the market value of cotton?

Based on the 3.5 RAW I posted, I would think that Profession (Pirate) (or at the very least Sailor or Merchant) would get a lot of this.

[sarcasm]Then again, maybe Hussar is just used to screwing his players at every turn by interpreting things in the worst possible way?[/sarcasm]

Granted, when I ran this, I used the profession skills precisely the way you are talking about. But, again, you're not playing in my game. I'm talking about the way the game is actually written, not how I would do it.

But, hey, it really, REALLY doesn't matter. Let's accept 4th level as required for a Pirate Captain. Sure. Granted, I had to take levels in rogue to do it, but fine. The goalposts are on roller-skates, but, that's been par for the course for this entire thread.

Going back to the speed of levelling we've been talking about, we're still at 10 sessions/level (note, Celebrim's rebuttal to this a few pages back actually specifically agreed on this levelling speed). So, we're still at 120 hours of play before hitting Pirate Captain.

Not a bad amount of time.

In my game, with the 7th level pirate captain, we're talking about (20 hours/levelx6 levels) 120 hours of play. Exactly the same.

Which is what I stated multiple times before. It's a wash. You grant the archetype at earlier levels, but then stretch out each level. I grant the archetype at higher levels, but level faster. The end result is exactly the same. You hit your archetype at the same time.

So, what's the difference?

 

[JamesonCourage]

Presuming, of course, you can actually take 10 on the check. And, of course, there are no actual penalties here, like rain. But, ok, fair enough, you got this one.

True. Then he might have to roll, or take a 10 (and fail by 1-4, and maybe get lost for a few days or something until the weather gets better). Just depends, obviously.

Isn't that what the Appraise skill is for? And Sense Motive? Are we now going to simply replace skills with Profession? Why on earth would a sailor (Or pirate for that matter) know the market value of cotton?

Yes, that's what those skills are for on a broad level. If you want to know how to appraise EVERYTHING, then take the Appraise skill. If you want to know how to Appraise just stuff in your profession, it looks like the RAW supports my interpretation.

Note: I said you probably couldn't read the guy (so no Profession for Sense Motive).

Granted, when I ran this, I used the profession skills precisely the way you are talking about. But, again, you're not playing in my game. I'm talking about the way the game is actually written, not how I would do it.

I literally quoted RAW, Hussar. Tell me where my interpretation is wrong, according to RAW, if that's your argument.

But, hey, it really, REALLY doesn't matter. Let's accept 4th level as required for a Pirate Captain. Sure. Granted, I had to take levels in rogue to do it, but fine. The goalposts are on roller-skates, but, that's been par for the course for this entire thread.

If you really want the Fighter, go for it. It's not the best way to do it if "Pirate Captain" is your end goal and not "Fighter", but hey, whatever. Take that first-level feat that allows you to grab any class skill and pick up Profession.

Going back to the speed of levelling we've been talking about, we're still at 10 sessions/level (note, Celebrim's rebuttal to this a few pages back actually specifically agreed on this levelling speed). So, we're still at 120 hours of play before hitting Pirate Captain.

Not a bad amount of time.

In my game, with the 7th level pirate captain, we're talking about (20 hours/levelx6 levels) 120 hours of play. Exactly the same.

Which is what I stated multiple times before. It's a wash. You grant the archetype at earlier levels, but then stretch out each level. I grant the archetype at higher levels, but level faster. The end result is exactly the same. You hit your archetype at the same time.

So, what's the difference?

I don't care about the speed of leveling. That debate means nothing to me. I just chimed in on the Pirate mechanics. If you want to talk about that, I'm down. You know my response on the other stuff: Play what you like

 

[Hussar]

And I agree Jc. But the thread is about speed of levelling.

 

[Derren]

Your Pirate Lord sails out of sight of land. This requires a DC 25 Survival check in order not to get lost. Your Pirate Lord cannot actually EVER sail out of sight of land.

Where do you get this DC from anyway? I assume Stormwrack where the DC for finding your position on open waters and poor visibility is DC 25 Knowledge Geography. As soon as you see the sky it drops down considerably to 17. And just the possession of a sextant gives you +2.

Which is what I stated multiple times before. It's a wash. You grant the archetype at earlier levels, but then stretch out each level. I grant the archetype at higher levels, but level faster. The end result is exactly the same. You hit your archetype at the same time.

This goes back to the original topic. With faster leveling there is the danger that the focus of the game shifts more towards gaining levels and assorted goodies skinner box style instead of playing out the game. And as you said, there is no practical difference except that it is more easy to simply start at higher level for those groups who want to play Batman and Pirate lords right from the start than adjusting XP tables.

 

[Hussar]

What's the rush? Has the "here and now" been replaced by the "next level" att...

But you're the one adjusting things. Your the one front end loading classes and then withholding xp awards (or greatly reducing them) in order to slow down progression.

I'm not really doing anything except playing the game in front of me.

And for gosh sake at least have the courtesy to read the thread before responding. How many times do I have to say that playing through the "apprentice" levels is fine?