Wheel of Time Discussion - Spoilers(with book spoilers)

[Parmandur]

Oh, please. Are you implying that I'm lying? Me saying that they're pandering doesn't mean I take issues with the cast being diverse. Please don't make the wrong assumption that those two mean the same thing - they don't. I really wish that such remarks could be made without certain ugly implications and assumptions being made. Again, I am simply critiquing their world-building. As I said, a diverse Two Rivers could make sense, if they put a bit of thought and effort into why that's the case.

If I'm making an error, it is being too picky and granular. But hey, I'm a world-building connoisseur and just pointing out where I see fuzzy bits around the edges.

Anyhow, I'm going to stop this line on inquiry, because what I'm saying will almost certainly be misconstrued. I think I explained my perspective re: world-building. Please stick with that, and don't assume anything more than that, just because I question the intentions behind the showrunners.

I'm not saying thst you are lying at all, but those two sentences are in some form of conflict.

 

[TheSword]

See, I wouldn't separate world-building out as unnecessary - for fantasy, it does matter. And I don't think your second sentence is true. It is almost certainly deliberate pandering.

Again, I have no issues with a diverse cast. What I take issue with is sloppy world-building. This isn't the only such issue - there are several things, all mostly minor, but that leave some cracks around the edges that, in total, slightly lessen the overall impact, at least for me. For instance, everything is a bit too clean. The clothes look machine-made and freshly washed (or even, never washed because they just came from some factory). Some of the props also look machine made. Compare this to Game of Thrones, where they took great pains to make everything look like it could have been made by Medieval crafts folk.

My overall feel for the show is still good: I'm enjoying it. I just don't think it is as finely crafted as GoT. But I'm definitely enjoying it more than the Witcher, and it is miles ahead of Shannara.

Well everyone in Westeros was white weren’t they? Except a couple of people from Dorne. It takes a lot of care to make worldbuilding that detailed does it?

 

[Parmandur]

Well everyone in Westeros was white weren’t they? Except a couple of people from Dorne. It takes a lot of care to make worldbuilding that detailed does it?

The Wheel of Time books, to be fair, have a detailed and diverse ethnography, in terms of phenotypes and material culture...but that was never going to be translated to a film medium.

 

[Mallus]

I think because I love fantasy so much, and really care about world-building, it bothers me a bit.

I care a lot out world-building, too -- let me tell you about my latest D&D setting... kidding! -- and I really liked the casting. For two reasons, mainly.

Reason #1, intradiegetic - the setting for Wheel of Time is post-apocalyptic. We see this in the first episode with the panning shots over ruins that suspiciously look like some type of skyscraper, and it's confirmed in the final episode with Lews Therin living in a vaguely TNG-era Trek looking utopia city, complete with flying cars. It's the aftermath of an advanced global society.

Reason #, extradiegetic - it's a 21st century TV series. Naturally it's going to reflect the cultural milieu it was made in. That's not bad world-building. That's good art. Or at least honest art, which may or may not be synonymous with 'good'. We might call it 'world-building', but what's really being built is a stage -- and all the elves and ogiers and whatever are merely players.

It's not by accident Tolkien's Shire was so Little England. What else are artists going to build their worlds out of besides their lived experiences (and who are they building things for?).

 

[Mercurius]

I’m sorry, that’s not a dig at you. It was a reference to the fact that in the age of legends people were beyond racism and didn’t segregate. I just don’t understand what is sloppy about genetic makeup being mixed across lands, following an enlightened time like this.

If the genetic make up in the mountain town is mixed to start with… then it isn’t going to resemble any one particular group in 500 years time. Also don’t forget that the Edmonds Fielders are descents of a massive city. It’s like if something indiscriminately wiped out 99.5% of Londoners and the survivors started again.

My apologies for misinterpreting. As for your point, you may be right. My admittedly limited knowledge of genetics makes me think that it would be more homogenous, but I could be wrong - especially after 1800 years (Manetheren was destroyed in 1200 AB).

I'm not saying thst you are lying at all, but those two sentences are in some form of conflict.

I don't think so, as I tried to explain. As I see it, having issues with a diverse cast implies either a kind of purism to the books, which I haven't said anything about, and/or other more nefarious inclinations, which I don't think I've given any reason to think I'm implying. My "issue"--such as it is--is solely on the basis of world-building verisimilitude. Really, it should be broadened beyond this one issue - as I said in my previous post to hawkeyefan. Again, they're all just minor quibbles, but they add up to a bit of a "hmm, ok."

I probably shouldn't have suggested that the showrunners are pandering, because I honestly don't know. But...

Well everyone in Westeros was white weren’t they? Except a couple of people from Dorne. It takes a lot of care to make worldbuilding that detailed does it?

I'm not sure what you're saying here. GoT had distinct ethnicities for the various peoples, in a realistic way. But it was a very different world: Medieval fantasy vs. post-apocalyptic fantasy.

The Wheel of Time books, to be fair, have a detailed and diverse ethnography, in terms of phenotypes and material culture...but that was never going to be translated to a film medium.

I can't remember, but did Jordan depict the different nations as distinctly different?

 

[Parmandur]

My apologies for misinterpreting. As for your point, you may be right. My admittedly limited knowledge of genetics makes me think that it would be more homogenous, but I could be wrong - especially after 1800 years (Manetheren was destroyed in 1200 AB).

I don't think so, as I tried to explain. As I see it, having issues with a diverse cast implies either a kind of purism to the books, which I haven't said anything about, and/or other more nefarious inclinations, which I don't think I've given any reason to think I'm implying. My "issue"--such as it is--is solely on the basis of world-building verisimilitude. Really, it should be broadened beyond this one issue - as I said in my previous post to hawkeyefan. Again, they're all just minor quibbles, but they add up to a bit of a "hmm, ok."

I probably shouldn't have suggested that the showrunners are pandering, because I honestly don't know. But...


I'm not sure what you're saying here. GoT had distinct ethnicities for the various peoples, in a realistic way. But it was a very different world: Medieval fantasy vs. post-apocalyptic fantasy.


I can't remember, but did Jordan depict the different nations as distinctly different?

Yes, very much so: in appearance, clothing, accent, customs, etc. People could see someone as looking like a Saldean or Tarabiner, but there was overlap and variety to be found. The Two Rivers folk, for example, were all black haired and brown-eyed with tan skin...and Rand got remarks for not looking like he was from the Two Rivers because he was so pale and so tall.

But that's not a realistic restriction for a stage or film adaptation, as they want to find actors who fit the particular terms of attitude and delivery.

 

[Mercurius]

I care a lot out world-building, too -- let me tell you about my latest D&D setting... kidding! -- and I really liked the casting. For two reasons, mainly.

Reason #1, intradiegetic - the setting for Wheel of Time is post-apocalyptic. We see this in the first episode with the panning shots over ruins that suspiciously look like some type of skyscraper, and it's confirmed in the final episode with Lews Therin living in a vaguely TNG-era Trek looking utopia city, complete with flying cars. It's the ruins of an advanced global society.

Reason #, extradiegetic - it's a 21st century TV series. Naturally it's going to reflect the cultural milieu it was made in. That's not bad world-building. That's good art. Or at least honest art, which may or may not be synonymous with 'good'. We might call it 'world-building', but what's really being build is a stage -- and all the elves and ogiers and whatever are merely players.

It's not by accident Tolkien's Shire was so Little England. What else are artists going to build their worlds out of besides their lived experiences (and who are they building things for?).

All of which I agree with as far as the world as a whole, but still think my "critique" of the Two Rivers stands. As I said, it is an isolated mountain community with little contact with the outside world - for centuries, if not millennia. That is, at least, wobbly world-building that would be stronger with some kind of rationale.

As for the casting, I like it for the most part. I even like some of the changes from Jordan's depiction. Some of the younger actors aren't great at their craft, but none are terrible.

As a general note, though, I'd put some limits on the idea of a 21st century TV series reflecting the cultural milieu - it really depends on the series and the work it draws from. I think it is also important to try to reflect the nature of the art itself. For instance, I'll be a bit more of a stickler to staying true to the source material for the upcoming LotR series, and am already a bit worried about rumors that the actors were told they need to be willing to get naked. This isn't out of any puritanism on my part, but more adherence to staying true to the "spirit of Tolkien" (just as I think it would be silly to make a rated G version of Game of Thrones). But we'll see...just a bit worried they're going to try too hard to appeal to the "Game of Thrones" crowd, when LotR is a very different work.

 

[Parmandur]

As a counter example...it isn't necessarily "good worldbuilding" that three cousins from a small rural community have as wildly different accents as Pippen, Merry and Frodo do in the movies (a Scotsman, an Irishman, and an American all walk into a bar pretending to be English gentry...), but approximately nobody cares.

 

[Mercurius]

Yes, very much so: in appearance, clothing, accent, customs, etc. People could see someone as looking like a Saldean or Tarabiner, but there was overlap and variety to be found. The Two Rivers folk, for example, were all black haired and brown-eyed with tan skin...and Rand got remarks for not looking like he was from the Two Rivers because he was so pale and so tall.

But that's not a realistic restriction for a stage or film adaptation, as they want to find actors who fit the particular terms of attitude and delivery.

OK, fair enough. My memory--again, 25+ years old--is that Andor was basically England, and everything outside of it various shades of Europe. Sort of. I also mis-remembered the Aiel as darker, when someone clarified that they were light-skinned in the books, and that Rand's mom was...

Spoiler: something

not Aiel, but from Andor.

 

[Mercurius]

As a counter example...it isn't necessarily "good worldbuilding" that three cousins from a small rural community have as wildly different accents as Pippen, Merry and Frodo do in the movies (a Scotsman, an Irishman, and an American all walk into a bar pretending to be English gentry...), but approximately nobody cares.

This is why I said I was admittedly being picky - it comes down to what you notice, based upon your knowledge base. I notice when some actors have British accents and others American, but not so much whether it is, say, Scottish vs. Irish. That's probably true of most Americans. Actually, my Scottish-American girlfriend is hard-pressed!