Wheel of Time Discussion - Spoilers(with book spoilers)

[Parmandur]

I really dislike this sort of nasty implication. I'm talking about world-building, not race relations. I don't care about the skin color of the cast, just how it clearly ignores any pretense to well-considered world-building for the sake of pandering. From a world-building perspective, the ethnic diversity of the Two Rivers and the world in general doesn't make sense. It could make sense, but they haven't bothered to make it do so.

And just to be clear, it isn't a huge deal, just noticeable and one of the facts that points to sloppy world-building.

Plus, what you say just doesn't make sense. If they "got over their racism 3000 years before" then they'd be more homogenous.

It's the same situation as Denzel Washington playing Macbeth recently, Lin Manuel Miranda playing Alexander Hamilton: film and stage productions aren't about "ethnographic accuracy," it's just not in the nature of the medium. Similarly with old plays having all male casts.

 

[Parmandur]

As for the Horn, I vaguely remember being somewhat disappointed with how Jordan handled it years ago. There really wasn't a proper Hunt, which I thought was a fun idea that he didn't really explore - except the idea that there were all these Hunters wandering around, looking for something that had already been found.

I haven't watched episode 8 yet, but my guess is that we're going to start seeing a greatly reduced plot - even more so than the first season. They have 13 more books to cover and they really can't be planning for 13 seasons. They can't simply combine two books into one season, especially with 8 episodes, so we're probably going to see huge swathes of the books just written out of the show, perhaps including a lot of the GH. Hopefully that isn't too extreme, as it was one of the better books, but they're obviously doing things a bit differently.

They have an 8 Season outline, and apparently Amazon is hardliners about 8 episode Seasons. So, we are looking at the whole story being condensed into about 64 episodes, though I hope the Last Battle gets a feature length treatment.

The showrunner said recently that Mat is skipping straight to his Book 3 plot for Season 2, and they have cast characters from Book 3 fornSeason 2, so a mix of Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn seems likely, and 2 books a season moving forward.

 

[Mercurius]

It's the same situation as Denzel Washington playing Macbeth recently, Lin Manuel Miranda playing Alexander Hamilton: film and stage productions aren't about "ethnographic accuracy," it's just not in the nature of the medium. Similarly with old plays having all male casts.

I think because I love fantasy so much, and really care about world-building, it bothers me a bit. And from a world-building perspective, such things matter. Again, not the diversity of the cast, but the lack of any kind of rationale for it. So I don't think it is quite the same thing as the examples you gave. For one, Hamilton was a deliberate subversion - that was kind of the point of the play. And, quite frankly, Denzel can play whoever he wants.

 

[Parmandur]

I think because I love fantasy so much, and really care about world-building, it bothers me a bit. And from a world-building perspective, such things matter. Again, not the diversity of the cast, but the lack of any kind of rationale for it. So I don't think it is quite the same thing as the examples you gave. For one, Hamilton was a deliberate subversion - that was kind of the point of the play. And, quite frankly, Denzel can play whoever he wants.

From a dramatic point of view, however, they don't really matter. The showrunners wanted to find people who could bring the right energy, whatever they look like.

 

[Mercurius]

From a dramatic point of view, however, they don't really matter. The showrunners wanted to find people who could bring the right energy, whatever they look like.

See, I wouldn't separate world-building out as unnecessary - for fantasy, it does matter. And I don't think your second sentence is true. It is almost certainly deliberate pandering.

Again, I have no issues with a diverse cast. What I take issue with is sloppy world-building. This isn't the only such issue - there are several things, all mostly minor, but that leave some cracks around the edges that, in total, slightly lessen the overall impact, at least for me. For instance, everything is a bit too clean. The clothes look machine-made and freshly washed (or even, never washed because they just came from some factory). Some of the props also look machine made. Compare this to Game of Thrones, where they took great pains to make everything look like it could have been made by Medieval crafts folk.

My overall feel for the show is still good: I'm enjoying it. I just don't think it is as finely crafted as GoT. But I'm definitely enjoying it more than the Witcher, and it is miles ahead of Shannara.

 

[Parmandur]

It is almost certainly deliberate pandering.

Again, I have no issues with a diverse cast.

Hmm.

 

[Mercurius]

Hmm.

Oh, please. Are you implying that I'm lying? Me saying that they're pandering doesn't mean I take issues with the cast being diverse. Please don't make the wrong assumption that those two mean the same thing - they don't. I really wish that such remarks could be made without certain ugly implications and assumptions being made. Again, I am simply critiquing their world-building. As I said, a diverse Two Rivers could make sense, if they put a bit of thought and effort into why that's the case.

If I'm making an error, it is being too picky and granular. But hey, I'm a world-building connoisseur and just pointing out where I see fuzzy bits around the edges.

Anyhow, I'm going to stop this line on inquiry, because what I'm saying will almost certainly be misconstrued. I think I explained my perspective re: world-building. Please stick with that, and don't assume anything more than that, just because I question the intentions behind the showrunners.

 

[hawkeyefan]

All in all, I really liked the first season. I think they did a great job with most ofthe material and in establishing just enough to keep folks interested and engaged without just expo-dumping all over the place.

I think it helps that I’m watching with my wife who has no knowledge of the books at all, so I kind of get a fresh view through her. Based on the things she’s asked about, and what she notices versus what she’s missed, I think they’re actually doing a very good job.

Again, not the diversity of the cast, but the lack of any kind of rationale for it.

What rationale do you need that the content of the show does not allow?

 

[Mercurius]

What rationale do you need that the content of the show does not allow?

When you say "allow for," sure, the show allows for any number of explanations. But I think greater clarity about how different nations differ in terms of demographics, and different characters--where they are from, what their lineage is, etc--would strengthen the integrity of the world-building.

The Two Rivers is an isolated mountain community, with little contact with the outside world except for peddlers and the occasional stray gleeman or traveler. I think it would bring greater verisimilitude for there to be an in-world reason for why it has such a diversity of ethnicities. One explanation could be that it is a bit of a haven for people from all over the world. But that isn't suggested.

Again, I admit to probably being a bit too picky/granular in terms of world-building, though I think there are numerous instances of sloppiness that add up, as I said above, that somewhat mar my suspension of disbelief. But none of the instances are so large that it significantly lessens my enjoyment of the show. Meaning, I'm not saying the show's world-building is bad, I'm just suggesting how I think it could be better.

 

[TheSword]

I really dislike this sort of nasty implication. I'm talking about world-building, not race relations. I don't care about the skin color of the cast, just how it clearly ignores any pretense to well-considered world-building for the sake of pandering. From a world-building perspective, the ethnic diversity of the Two Rivers and the world in general doesn't make sense. It could make sense, but they haven't bothered to make it do so.

And just to be clear, it isn't a huge deal, just noticeable and one of the facts that points to sloppy world-building.

Plus, what you say just doesn't make sense. If they "got over their racism 3000 years before" then they'd be more homogenous.

I’m sorry, that’s not a dig at you. It was a reference to the fact that in the age of legends people were beyond racism and didn’t segregate. I just don’t understand what is sloppy about genetic makeup being mixed across lands, following an enlightened time like this.

If the genetic make up in the mountain town is mixed to start with… then it isn’t going to resemble any one particular group in 500 years time. Also don’t forget that the Edmonds Fielders are descents of a massive city. It’s like if something indiscriminately wiped out 99.5% of Londoners and the survivors started again.