D&D 5E When do you think the revised fighter will be released?

[Razamis]

I'm silly I missed the 2 turn bit. Ooops.

The level 20 thing stands however.

If you don't allow the fighter to take their greatest damage increase option (GWM), but allow paladins to keep theirs (smiting) unaltered, then of course you are going to see balance problems.

If you do not allow GWM (which I think is fantastic for game balance btw), you could consider limiting the paladins smiting to once per ROUND, which would keep the damage in the realm of the non-GWM fighter, especially a battle-master. The paladin has more utility, but the fighter has more feats/ASI and action surge every short rest, and at level 11 and higher the fighter will out damage the paladin regardless.

 

[Hillsy7]

If you do not allow GWM (which I think is fantastic for game balance btw), you could consider limiting the paladins smiting to once per ROUND, which would keep the damage in the realm of the non-GWM fighter, especially a battle-master.

Not sure I understand how limiting smites to smites per round affects Damage imbalance. At level 11, a Paladin can cast a maximum of 10 smites between long rests. With 2 attacks per round and a "rough" 50% hit chance, A Paladin must make 10 Attack Actions between long rests to maximise damage. The DMG suggest (roughly) 2-3 encounters per SHORT rest, and that roughly each encounter lasts 5 turns on average. Therefore, you can expect the Paladin to tap out Smites (Using smite on Every hit) after 2 of the 3 encounters before a short rest, and then have nothing for the day.

By my count, it doesn't matter if it's twice per round for the first 5 attacks, or once over the first 10 rounds, Or 1 smite per encounter before a long rest. Over the course of a day (assuming 4.5 average on every Smite d8), you get an extra (29d8s) 130 points of damage per Long rest. Limiting the burst-i-ness does utterly nothing to change this.

To put that in perspective - using 3 short rests per long rest (call it 10 encounters), a fighter will make 50 attack actions (roughly) per long rest. With a +1 STR over a paladin (from an ASI), he can expect to hit 5% more often (increase damage by 5%) and do 1 point of damage extra per hit. A GWF averages 8.33 per dice roll plus STR. Lets say we're comparing 18 STR to 20 STR, soooo......

Paladin: 50 Attack actions @ 50% to hit = 50 Hits x 12.33 Damage + 130 Smite damage = 747 Damage per long rest
Fighter: 50 Attack actions @ 55% to hit (from +1 STR) = 55 Hits x 13.33 Damage = 733 Damage Damage per long rest

So a level 11 paladin's smite damage does the equivalent to +1 STR per long rest. And completely regardless of whether that's front loaded or not. Yeah a Paladin can Nova, but a fighter with +1 more STR does just as much damage. In fact, limiting Smite to Per Round ONLY matters if you make less attack actions per long rest that you have Smites - which just isn't going to happen in any sensible game.

 

[hejtmane]

Do you use feats?

Barbs and Palas come with many toys built-in, while the Battlemaster gains things that enable feats.

The Eldritch Knight is very powerful. Simply spend all your slots on Shield and you have mean lean tanking machine right there that's just as straight-forward as the Champion, only much more powerful.



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The EK is probaly been the second best tank in the adventures I have run and that is two handed and not using a shield took protection over the slight boost of GWF shield and absorb elements ; now the Barbarian Bear totem is just down right the best meat shield with the rages and half to all damage but psiniocs.

 

[hejtmane]

I think the Champion Fighter might be weak but the Battlemaster looks solid. That said, I do think the paladin is really really good in comparison. They just have the whole package, good offense, good defense, great saves, charisma for roleplaying, can heal themselves well, have their own horse whenever they need it. The paladin is a much more self-sufficient class than the fighter.

NOt sure that is the case

Battle master has 4 Superiority dice (starting at 1d8 and scales 1d12 and extra dice added later) and they reset on a short rest and has more asi's including 6th level they get a third attack at 11 this changes everything indomitable helps on rerolling saving throws and then the best nova on short rest action surge and they get a free heal on short rest second wind I say the battle master is right there with the pally the difference is the paladin aura can help your group on saves.

 

[hejtmane]

I must, too.

Although my gnome battlemaster was indeed weak - with only an 8 strength! (Yes, he was weak. Now, he's dead)

He was a Gnome he deserves to be dead

 

[Razamis]

Not sure I understand how limiting smites to smites per round affects Damage imbalance. At level 11, a Paladin can cast a maximum of 10 smites between long rests. With 2 attacks per round and a "rough" 50% hit chance, A Paladin must make 10 Attack Actions between long rests to maximise damage. The DMG suggest (roughly) 2-3 encounters per SHORT rest, and that roughly each encounter lasts 5 turns on average. Therefore, you can expect the Paladin to tap out Smites (Using smite on Every hit) after 2 of the 3 encounters before a short rest, and then have nothing for the day.

By my count, it doesn't matter if it's twice per round for the first 5 attacks, or once over the first 10 rounds, Or 1 smite per encounter before a long rest. Over the course of a day (assuming 4.5 average on every Smite d8), you get an extra (29d8s) 130 points of damage per Long rest. Limiting the burst-i-ness does utterly nothing to change this.

To put that in perspective - using 3 short rests per long rest (call it 10 encounters), a fighter will make 50 attack actions (roughly) per long rest. With a +1 STR over a paladin (from an ASI), he can expect to hit 5% more often (increase damage by 5%) and do 1 point of damage extra per hit. A GWF averages 8.33 per dice roll plus STR. Lets say we're comparing 18 STR to 20 STR, soooo......

Paladin: 50 Attack actions @ 50% to hit = 50 Hits x 12.33 Damage + 130 Smite damage = 747 Damage per long rest
Fighter: 50 Attack actions @ 55% to hit (from +1 STR) = 55 Hits x 13.33 Damage = 733 Damage Damage per long rest

So a level 11 paladin's smite damage does the equivalent to +1 STR per long rest. And completely regardless of whether that's front loaded or not. Yeah a Paladin can Nova, but a fighter with +1 more STR does just as much damage. In fact, limiting Smite to Per Round ONLY matters if you make less attack actions per long rest that you have Smites - which just isn't going to happen in any sensible game.

I guess it depends on that game you play, I always found the DMGs suggested encounters per day to be laughable. Unless your D&D sessions are hugely combat focused, almost to the point of a miniature war game rather than a role playing game, no one is having 3 encounters per short rest constantly, its just not happening. Sometimes you have more, sometimes you have less. Often times characters will go several in game days without an encounter.

Look at hugely successful and popular groups like Critical Role, they probably average two combats per four hour show, often with time for rests between, depending on the situation.

 

[TwoSix]

So a level 11 paladin's smite damage does the equivalent to +1 STR per long rest. And completely regardless of whether that's front loaded or not. Yeah a Paladin can Nova, but a fighter with +1 more STR does just as much damage. In fact, limiting Smite to Per Round ONLY matters if you make less attack actions per long rest that you have Smites - which just isn't going to happen in any sensible game.

Obviously encounter design matters here, but, in general, being able to nova is kind of a big deal. Being able to put down high-impact monsters quickly is pretty decisive in ending encounters with relatively little damage taken, which allows you to conserve resources for more fights.

 

[Istbor]

With ranger being fixed, the fighter is now the weakest class by a large margin. When do you think they will get an update?

Here are my thoughts...

 

[LapBandit]

At most tables you're better off playing a barbarian or paladin than a fighter. That said, if you don't like how fighters are, homebrew them to make them more poweful, like I did at my table, instead of complaining.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Sure it's a bit boring, but so has every other fighter, except for 4th edition, and that basically turned every class into a caster, including the fighter.

While the 4e fighter certainly wasn't boring, neither was a sufficiently well-done 3.x fighter build at least in a campaign that wasn't too badly dominated by Tier 1 classes.
And, while the 4e fighter wasn't boring, it categorically did not cast spells.

The 5e fighter, however, actually does cast spells.

If you don't allow the fighter to take their greatest damage increase option (GWM)

It is a feat, and feats are explicitly optional, so if you're not using Feats or MCing - 'standard' PH 5e - it's off the table. If it's on the table, the fighter & paladin can both take it at 4th level (1st if they're variant human) so it's kinda moot.

I guess it depends on that game you play, I always found the DMGs suggested encounters per day to be laughable.

None the less, that long 6-8 encounter day is what the classes are nominally balanced around, to the extent they can be said to balance at all, even theoretically.

Obviously encounter design matters here, but, in general, being able to nova is kind of a big deal. Being able to put down high-impact monsters quickly is pretty decisive in ending encounters with relatively little damage taken, which allows you to conserve resources for more fights.

Sure, even in the rare 'balanced' consistently-averaging 6-8 encounter/2-3 short-rest per day campaign, the option to nova is a big advantage. You might frequently decline to use it because of the resource management pressures in such a campaign, but when you do, chances are, it makes a big difference and proactively buys you some significant/memorable spotlight time.