When does CN become CE?

[Mapleaxe]

In my current campaign, one of the PCs (CN half-orc barbarian/cleric to god of chaos and change) has on numerous occasions killed helpless prisoners, at least once after he promised that he wouldn't kill them in exchange for information. The other characters are a bit appalled by this but none of them can really stand up to him (he's the group's combat tank). How long does this go one before I should demote him to Chaotic Evil?

Normally I wouldn't care too much (I usually view the alignments as loose guidelines), but the character happens to wield a Holy weapon, and if he slips down to an evil alignment, I can "punish" him with the temporary level loss for wielding a Holy weapon.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

Need more information.

Killing someone who is "helpless" is not necessarily evil, although it may be. What was his reason for doing it? If it was just for fun, then he's evil. If it was retribution for crimes the prisoner's had committed, then he may be neutral or good.

I am assuming that by "helpless" you mean that they were chained up or unarmed--something like that.

The difference between evil and neutral is the degree of cruelty and hatred involved. An evil character enjoys killing because it gives him a thrill; he enjoys debasing others and causing them pain, regardless of whether they deserve it. A neutral character might occasionally enjoy inflicting pain, but usually only if he feels that his victim is truly morally despicable.

Another comment: I find it a little bit funny that anyone would take seriously a "promise" from a chaotic character. Breaking a promise does not make him evil. It just makes him chaotic.

 

[King_Stannis]

well, if you're a stickler for alignments, lay the hammer down on him right away - if it'll do any good. the overwhelming portion of players that pick CN as an alignment are just using it as an excuse to act like amoral monsters. yada yada yada, same old same old. this is one of the eternal struggles of the game - how to deal with the CN player.

some, like myself and Teflon Billy, have pretty much done away with alignment. I have my players mark it down on their sheet, but it's only a formality - just a starting point, if you will. years of DM'ing have taught me that it's much easier to teach players a lesson by creating realistic consequences for their actions than by administering their alignment like a overzealous school teacher.

the only time i'd be strict is in the case of a paladin or any other character that lives by a code. i'd have that player set down a code (in writing) before playing his character. if his code requires him to kill infidels while they're helpless, so be it. he just better be sure that he follows the code that he set down.

 

[Jay Berg]

This for me would clearly be a case of CE!

Why? A CN character is the ultimate egoist but still has a shred of morality (does that word exist?) with him. He would do almost anything to further his cause. What he wouldn't do (in my humble opinion) is kill just for the fun of it. As long as a CN character isn't cruel for crueltys sake it's ok. But what you have described would be CE in my campaign.

But I have to admit that aligment is really only important when it comes to religion or believe based rules. Other than that... it always helps when the victims have unkown powerful friends.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Two thoughts.

1. The difference between CN and CE can be explained this way. A Chaotic Neutral person looks at personal freedom being the ultimate right. Nothing is more important. This though includes the personal freedom of others. Basically a CN's freedom with his fist ends at the tip of other peoples noses. A CE on the other hand feels that his personal freedom is so important that it should and will infringe on the freedoms of others. Basically his freedom with his fist ends at the back of the other guys skull. So your Barbarian is definately being CE he is infringing on the freedom of others which is the most important trait his alignment has.


2. At what point will his Diety get miffed over these sacrifices the cleric is making to the God of Murder? I can see this character soon having a crisis of faith as his God either reigns him in or boots him out.

 

[Mallus]

Need more info...

As far as I'm concerned, a textbook {rulebook?} CN character can lie to, and even kill, prisoners, but it depends entirely on the context.

What were the prisoners? Why were they antagonists to the party? Could they be remanded into the custody of the proper authorities {are there 'proper authorities' in this case?}. Would they pose a threat to innocents if they weren't killed?

I don't have a problem with a CN cleric dispatcing an evil cultist after giving his word. It all depends on the characters priorities. But if the character acted only out of cruelty or bloodlust or a wanton disregard for life, then sure, they're CE.

As to a holy weapon... that depends on how much work you want to do. I don't use hard alignments. All me faiths have tenets, which don't fit neatly into textbook alignments. If you deviate from your faith's core ethos/practices, then surely your trusted Holy item will eventually bite you on your ass.

And DocMoriiartty: Do you really consider every act of murder a sacrifice to the God of Murder {assuming said God exists at all in the pantheon}. Doesn't sacrifice imply a ritual act. Would a cleric of a war god get into trouble by giving someone a tender kiss, which could be interpreted as a sacrifice to the god/goddes of romantic love? It would make for an interesting campaign, where clerics have to constantly on guard for fear of having their deities interpret nearly every action as a scarfice....

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Re: Need more info...

I consider it fair to assume that Gods gain power and revel in acts that exemplify their portfolio. So yes I think the God of Murder would very much appreciate those murders and dependign on his alignment may consider this a good opportunity to gain a convert in the Half-Orc.

And DocMoriiartty: Do you really consider every act of murder a sacrifice to the God of Murder {assuming said God exists at all in the pantheon}. Doesn't sacrifice imply a ritual act. Would a cleric of a war god get into trouble by giving someone a tender kiss, which could be interpreted as a sacrifice to the god/goddes of romantic love? It would make for an interesting campaign, where clerics have to constantly on guard for fear of having their deities interpret nearly every action as a scarfice....

 

[candidus_cogitens]

1. The difference between CN and CE can be explained this way. A Chaotic Neutral person looks at personal freedom being the ultimate right. Nothing is more important. This though includes the personal freedom of others. Basically a CN's freedom with his fist ends at the tip of other peoples noses. A CE on the other hand feels that his personal freedom is so important that it should and will infringe on the freedoms of others. Basically his freedom with his fist ends at the back of the other guys skull. So your Barbarian is definately being CE he is infringing on the freedom of others which is the most important trait his alignment has.

To me, Doc, this sounds like the difference between true neutral and CN.

The guy that you presented as CN, doesn't seem to me to be necessarily chaotic, since he still respects some kind of principle that he allows to govern his actions. He might even be lawful, if he is really adimant about the principle that people should not let their personal freedom impinge upon that of others.

Your CE does not seem to me to be necessarily evil, although he may be. If he crushes other people's skulls just for his amusement, then he is probably evil, but if he does it because he sees them as obstacles to his personal goals, then he might be more neutral.

IMHO, you gotta leave room on the Good-Evil spectrum for the truly maniacally evil, the individual who just revels in torturing, debasing and humiliating others. Causing pain is his passion, his addiction. Neutral individuals, by contrast, don't enjoy cruelty for cruelty's sake, even though they may not have the least bit of respect for other people's lives, freedoms or dignity.

 

[Vaxalon]

Neutral individuals, by contrast, don't enjoy cruelty for cruelty's sake, even though they may not have the least bit of respect for other people's lives, freedoms or dignity.

So you're saying that someone who kills people out of hand, imprisons them on trumped-up charges, or drags them through the street in chains, can be neutral if he's following an agenda rather than just having fun????

Remind me not to vote for you, buddy.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I have just a couple of comments. I lean towards DocM's view of things.

First of all, there's no reason the DM ever has to tell the players their alignments. The alignment the player writes down on his character sheet is a starting point, as someone else said, but ultimately it is meaningless. A PC's alignment is the purview of the DM. YOU decide.

Never tell a player, "You can't do that, it's against your alignment." Don't let alignments dictate your players actions, let their actions dictate their alignment.

Now, about that holy sword. We can imagine the sword draws its power from some holy source, yes? This is why it grants that negative level to evil characters. Somehow, someway, the sword KNOWS the heart of its wielder, even if it is not an intelligent sword per se. So just ask yourself, honestly, how a HOLY sword will take to being used to slaughter helpless prisoners.

Finally, about those spineless "other players." These are supposed to be adventurers? The good guys? Knuckling under to the big half-orc like a bunch of boot-licking goblins?

Wait till the half-orc is sleeping, whack him with a big axe, and stack him on the big pile of dead bad guys. Coup de grace, fort save, end of subject. And if the half-orc player complains, give him a gentle reminder that he set the precedent for the guilt-free slaughter of helpless foes.


Wulf