D&D 5E Which Classic Settings do you think WotC will publish?

[Henadic Theologian]

The city of Manifest is explicitly on the Prime Material. It's built above an open gateway to the land of the dead, allowing both player characters to enter the (shockingly small) land of the dead to rescue dead comrades and for characters that die nearby to switch to undead classes, something that the Ravenloft Lineages system will make even easier.

Ravenloft wasn't located in the Shadowfell in previous editions either.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Dark Sun - I think there's zero question that they want to do Dark Sun given the various references, mentions, and so on. It's one of the previous-edition settings with the most name recognition, especially from younger fans, weirdly (possibly because it was also a 4E setting but I think there's a bit more going on), it's a setting different to what they've done before, and the ecological elements and the fact that the players may be fighting for a very literal kind of justice against oppressive rulers make it feel perhaps even more relevant now than it was in the 1990s. I'd expect significant changes because fundamentally 5E's approach to magic is different to 2E, and WotC completely messed up their work on Psionics by applying irrational acceptance standards to them.

The same crowd that "discovers" that Rage Against the Machine is political every year or so would absolutely lose their minds when a 2021/2022 Dark Sun setting leans into the climate change and social justice themes that were there since the beginning and would almost certainly be doubled down upon now.

Which, of course, would also make it sell gangbusters to Gen Z gamers.

I know a lot of people are expecting Dragonlance because there's a Dragonlance novel or novel series coming up but historically neither TSR nor WotC have consistently matched DL novel releases with actual RPG products. Especially as one suspects the core audience for DL novels is now, well, mid-40s and up in age, so one of the smallest segments of the D&D audience. If you look on places where fantasy novels are discussed, I think you'll find very few people under 40 have read the DL novels, and even smaller proportion of those hold a positive opinion rather than "Yeah I read them when I was a kid then I tried re-reading them more recently and I didn't enjoy them much". Plus they're super-generic fantasy with a ton of problematic elements and WotC tried to not publish the most recent one! So I wouldn't be shocked if DL was one of the upcoming classic settings, but I would be at least a little bit surprised.

Cleaning up the problematic elements of Dragonlance would make the freak-out over Ravenloft being updated to 2021 standards look mild in comparison. And I remain unconvinced there's a big modern audience for Dragonlance. Today's fantasy fans are reading Game of Thrones, Harry Potter and a thousand other things. Dragonlance isn't even in the conversation nowadays. Whom WotC would be chasing with this product, I have no idea. That said, both TSR and WotC (via a license) seem determined that there is an audience out there.

So I'm mystified as to who they'd be aiming at with a GH revival. I mean, I could see it happening - we've three basically-irrational attempts to resurrect GH, in the early 1990s, in 1998, and in 2000. None of those made any sense, none of them were successful, but it didn't stop people from trying repeatedly. Could that happen again? Even in the much-more-rational WotC of 2021 and onwards? I think it could. Ray Winninger worked at TSR in the 1980s, he's certainly old enough that he could have some serious nostalgia for GH (though judging from his own RPG output, I'd be slightly surprised if he did). It's particularly odd as an idea because the sort of people I could see it appealing to are extremely well-catered to by pretty high-quality and prolific RPGs like DCC and other OSR stuff. I mean, the FR has been steadily popular for 30-odd years at this point, and they've felt no reason to go beyond SCAG and various adventures, so it's particularly hard to see why they'd go "Hey this setting was popular like 35 years ago, let's make it happen again!". I could see a "maximum nostalgia" product for D&D's 50th I guess. They certainly did nostalgia stuff with GH adventures for the 25th (which was also WotC). But looking at the irrational attempts to make it happen, you never know...

I think Greyhawk would have to be for a 2024 Golden Anniversary thing, and they'd likely want to go for maximum nostalgia and give it a very gritty OSR treatment. But you're right -- beyond the anniversary/nostalgia appeal, it's not clear what Greyhawk has to offer that isn't available elsewhere already. (And my first D&D setting was the folio, so it's not like I don't feel a deep pull of nostalgia for it myself.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

we know DL is coming

Do we? I think a 5E Draconomicon is much more likely, based on the UAs full of stuff that's explicitly not present in Krynn.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

This is a really good point. What would be the most likely reigions? My guess is either Dalelands/Cormanthor or Moonshaes, due to the fey stuff. But I could see them doing a desert setting, either Anauroch or Raurin (Desert of Desolation), or maybe Calimshan. There's been rumors of Lantan for awhile, but I don't know if that's just wishful thinking.

A Desert of Desolation book in the Ghosts of Saltmarsh vein seems really, really likely to me.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Ravenloft wasn't located in the Shadowfell in previous editions either.

Literally the point of Manifest is to allow people to pass between the mortal world and land of the dead. If you put it in the land of the dead, it'd just be a city and there's better candidates for that, like Gloomwrought.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

I'm not a Forgotten Realms fan by any means, but I'm shocked that we haven't gone back to the Dalelands since, I believe, 3E.

Literally the point of Manifest is to allow people to pass between the mortal world and land of the dead. If you put it in the land of the dead, it'd just be a city and there's better candidates for that, like Gloomwrought.

Shadowfell isn't the land of the dead, mostly, its the middle ground between the material plane and the Afterlives (with FR getting an additional between plane of the Fugutive Plane after souls pass through the Shadowfell).

The Shadowfell isn't the afterlife.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don't think they'll ever publish a Greyhawk setting book again. Another Faerun book should happen sooner or later. Planescape is kind of legendary and has its own ethos, so that's my vote for what we'll see eventually.

Bleak Cabal! F* me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of the Mercykillers, Dude; at least it's an ethos.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

EDIT: The best quality FR books on the DMsGuild IMO, are Darkhold: Secrets of the Zhentarim, and The Border Kingdoms: A Forgotten Realms. Campaign Supplement

If my players pulled out guns and forced me to run a Forgotten Realms game, it'd definitely be in the Border Kingdoms. What a great classic-style D&D setting that is blessedly almost entirely free from decades of cruft from novels, adventures and computer games.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

I largely believe that the D&D team thinks Forgotten Realms is too big to tackle in one book. After all, they were able to give the Sword Coast a book entirely it's own, and have proven they can write sizeable gazetteers for just a single city. And looking at how Zakhara or Kara-tur got their own books in previous editions, I think the D&D team just finds that a setting book of the entirety of FR would be covering too wide a swathe of area, when they would rather go deep of many books.

They've done it before in past editions. and they can afford to give it a larger page count now with the larger audience. The key is to focus on the basic practical information for the current era and a good solid map (seriously this hugely important a good map of Faerun conveys so much information).

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I assume you mean Mercer. I don't see why they would do another Exandria book until Campaign 3, and even then a couple years into it. Maybe WotC would like to release an updated version of Tal'Dorei (in partnership with Mercer) when the Amazon animated show is released.

I think a revamped Tal'Dorei makes a lot of sense, although Critical Role, which is publishing more of their own stuff now, doesn't need to go through Green Ronin or WotC to get it done.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'd really like Council of Wyrms but, unfortunately am a realist. Desspite the fact it'd be fun.

Council of Wyrms could probably be shoe-horned into a 5E Draconomicon, with new races, subclasses, etc., put up front and the isles themselves just getting a modest chapter in the back.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

We just had an Unearth Arcana with Dragonlance references. My bet is that DL is the next campaign world.

It also had Forgotten Realms references and kobolds.

Taking the mention of "Fizban" as proof of Dragonlance means ignoring a lot else in the very same UA.

 

[Parmandur]

At least 2 tidbits, some GH shared lore, the fact that everything fits FR lore (if Fizban is a Planeswalker), which is more then you can say for the other settings. Greyhawk has no Dragonborn and Dragonlance has no Gem Dragons (and no none Draconian Dragonborn).

FR is the only setting that the whole UA can fit into and when you add the Dragon Options UA with Subclasses 5 UA, its the basic common structure of Player Options for Setting Books, 2 subclass, some races, a smattering of other player options including Supernatural Gifts (this time Dragon Themed) like Ravenloft got Dark Gifts and Theros got its own Supernatural Gifts. And yes the Dragon Gifts were labeled feats, but Gifts have been structured as Gifts and you can in fact take a feat instead of a gift in MOoT.

You add in the fact that we now know that AFR and one of its Commander Decks has strong Dragonic themes including solid Dragon tribal and Dragon Gods and special extra Dragon Alt Art and it just fits.

Sure there are Dragonborn in Greyhawk, see Ghosts of Saltmarsh.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Shadowfell isn't the land of the dead, mostly, its the middle ground between the material plane and the Afterlives (with FR getting an additional between plane of the Fugutive Plane after souls pass through the Shadowfell).

The Shadowfell isn't the afterlife.

Ghostwalk was created a way to make player death an adventuring opportunity, rather than a potential point where players could walk away from the table. Taking Manifest off the Prime Material Plane eliminates that. In 5E, any group that's going to be able to get to the Shadowfell isn't going to find raising a dead party member a huge obstacle.

That said, I think Ghostwalk is the only time we've actually seen the land of the dead where souls linger before heading on to the Outer Planes, other than some handwavey stuff about "oh, they're around here somewhere" with the Ethereal in 2E. It wouldn't be a terrible idea to put Ghostwalk's afterlife (with the borders removed) into a planar book and add Manifest in as another planar locale, alongside the City of Brass, Sigil, Gloomwrought, etc., with its hook being that this "planar city" is on the Prime Material Plane and is a doorway to the worlds beyond.

 

[Parmandur]

Cleaning up the problematic elements of Dragonlance would make the freak-out over Ravenloft being updated to 2021 standards look mild in comparison. And I remain unconvinced there's a big modern audience for Dragonlance. Today's fantasy fans are reading Game of Thrones, Harry Potter and a thousand other things. Dragonlance isn't even in the conversation nowadays. Whom WotC would be chasing with this product, I have no idea. That said, both TSR and WotC (via a license) does seem determined that there is an audience out there.

You'd probably be surprised, the original books are still in print and they are older than I am. The new novels shortly might give some indication of market viability in the modern age, but given that WotC tried to kill them does seem to indicate to me they aren't rushing RPG product out quite yet. In terms of what distinct experience Dragonlance has to offer, if we look at Setting books in 5E as "genre booster packs" them Dragonlance is perfect for a genre toolbox for Epic Fantasy (as opposed to the High Fantasy of the Core books and FR). That is a mode of play that a full rulebook could explore fruitfully.

I think Greyhawk would have to be for a 2024 Golden Anniversary thing, and they'd likely want to go for maximum nostalgia and give it a very gritty OSR treatment. But you're right -- beyond the anniversary/nostalgia appeal, it's not clear what Greyhawk has to offer that isn't available elsewhere already. (And my first D&D setting was the folio, so it's not like I don't feel a deep pull of nostalgia for it myself.)

There are layers of nostalgia here, as my first Setting was Greyhawk in the form of the Core rulebooks (my college campaign was basically a PoL campaign before that was a thing, with Greyhawk elements). Similar to the possibility of an Epic Fantasy booster from Dragonlance, Greyhawk could be a Sword & Sorcery genre booster, providing tools for making more of an old fashioned pulp swashbuckler campaign like in the literature Gygax loved.

 

[Parmandur]

Ghostwalk was created a way to make player death an adventuring opportunity, rather than a potential point where players could walk away from the table. Taking Manifest off the Prime Material Plane eliminates that. In 5E, any group that's going to be able to get to the Shadowfell isn't going to find raising a dead party member a huge obstacle.

That said, I think Ghostwalk is the only time we've actually seen the land of the dead where souls linger before heading on to the Outer Planes, other than some handwavey stuff about "oh, they're around here somewhere" with the Ethereal in 2E. It wouldn't be a terrible idea to put Ghostwalk's afterlife (with the borders removed) into a planar book and add Manifest in as another planar locale, alongside the City of Brass, Sigil, Gloomwrought, etc., with its hook being that this "planar city" is on the Prime Material Plane and is a doorway to the worlds beyond.

Manifest : the Shadowfell

as

Elven City of Elvishness : the Feywild?

 

[Henadic Theologian]

Sure there are Dragonborn in Greyhawk, see Ghosts of Saltmarsh.

I was refering to traditional Greyhawk.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

You'd probably be surprised, the original books are still in print and they are older than I am.

I would be surprised, yes.

No Dragonlance books appear in the top 100 at Amazon for science fiction and fantasy. (Van Richten's Guide is at #15.) Nor is it in the top 100 for Amazon for just the fantasy books. (Incidentally, all the people freaking out about how D&D doesn't just include what fantasy fiction included in 1979 would do well to look over the diversity of these lists and how much fantasy has changed and expanded. D&D is just following audience tastes and reflecting the influences modern game writers bring to the books.)

if we look at Setting books in 5E as "genre booster packs" them Dragonlance is perfect for a genre toolbox for Epic Fantasy (as opposed to the High Fantasy of the Core books and FR). That is a mode of play that a full rulebook could explore fruitfully.

I am not convinced the DMG -- and core books generally -- don't already cover this adequately. What epic fantasy elements aren't already mechanically supported in 5E?

Greyhawk could be a Sword & Sorcery genre booster, providing tools for making more of an old fashioned pulp swashbuckler campaign like in the literature Gygax loved.

But he didn't really put it in Greyhawk. This is the guy who attacked his players with a Panzer tank driven by Nazis and published two modules based on Lewis Carroll. The Greyhawk folio had a high medieval knight on the cover and heraldry for all of the major nations. The "Greyhawk = sword and sorcery" thing people have been advocating for the last few years is ahistorical at worst, or based on Greyhawk Wars exclusively at best.

I'm also not sure WotC wouldn't just roll Greyhawk back to the original boxed set era for a nostalgia-driven 50th anniversary publication, which would strip away almost all of the sword and sorcery stuff.

And, in any case, what mechanical support is needed to make 5E more sword and sorcery than it already can be? Ravenloft and Theros added mechanical elements that supported their themes, but other than listing a price for chariots, sandals and chainmail bikinis, what is 5E missing for sword and sorcery?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I was refering to traditional Greyhawk.

WotC publishing a 5E Greyhawk guarantees a large part of the audience would be furious with whatever choices they make. To me, the Greyhawk Wars/From the Ashes era isn't the traditional Greyhawk. To others, they represent the Continuity That Shall Not Be Ignored.

 

[Parmandur]

I would be surprised, yes.

No Dragonlance books appear in the top 100 at Amazon for science fiction and fantasy. (Van Richten's Guide is at #15.) Nor is it in the top 100 for Amazon for just the fantasy books. (Incidentally, all the people freaking out about how D&D doesn't just include what fantasy fiction included in 1979 would do well to look over the diversity of these lists and how much fantasy has changed and expanded. D&D is just following audience tastes and reflecting the influences modern game writers bring to the books.)

I am not convinced the DMG -- and core books generally -- don't already cover this adequately. What epic fantasy elements aren't already mechanically supported in 5E?

But he didn't really put it in Greyhawk. This is the guy who attacked his players with a Panzer tank driven by Nazis and published two modules based on Lewis Carroll. The Greyhawk folio had a high medieval knight on the cover and heraldry for all of the major nations. The "Greyhawk = sword and sorcery" thing people have been advocating for the last few years is ahistorical at worst, or based on Greyhawk Wars exclusively at best.

I'm also not sure WotC wouldn't just roll Greyhawk back to the original boxed set era for a nostalgia-driven 50th anniversary publication, which would strip away almost all of the sword and sorcery stuff.

And, in any case, what mechanical support is needed to make 5E more sword and sorcery than it already can be? Ravenloft and Theros added mechanical elements that supported their themes, but other than listing a price for chariots, sandals and chainmail bikinis, what is 5E missing for sword and sorcery?

Having Panzar tanks and Lewis Carroll elements seems like a good argument for the distinctiveness of Greyhawk to me.

A better comparison to the sort of support I'm imagining is Ravnica or Eberron: less mechanical (though I'm sure a handful of Subclasses are easily wrangled), and more the DMG Chapter five booster material: random tables, NPCs, and maps. For Dragonlance, rules for a sort of "Fellowship" mechanic seem plausible, as the PCs are Heroes of Destiny in a fraternity, instead of soldiers of fortune in an alliance of convenience.