Which Prc for the Paladin?

[The Souljourner]

Son of a.... I just lost a 15 minute diatribe. *sigh*

Let me break it down - Hospitaler friggin' rocks. Templar friggin' rocks. Paladins are in no way close to the most powerful fighters, and clerics and fighters can use shields and be just as defensive as the paladin. Paladin spellcasting is total suckage and shouldn't be considered a core feature. I think lay on hands, smite, and turn undead are more key. Let the clerics meditate and pray for the spells they choose in the morning. Pansies. Real divine champions just tap into that power directly to spectacular effect.

-The Souljourner

 

[FireLance]

My view is, if you can't find a good paladin PrC, make your own. This is a shameless plug for my Blessed Armsman PrC (updated for 3.5e) linked in my sig .

 

[Darklone]

Please don't start this again, Darklone.

Now, about those "buffs" your Paladin decimated opponents with:
You do realize that a Divine Favor cast by a Paladin of level 11 and below will grant him a whopping +1 to attack/damage for 1 minute, right? (Paladin levels count as HALF, crippling his buffing capability).
And look at his spell list!
What else is he going to use to good effect?...
I'll grant you, Darklone, that he may make more saves than others, and he won;t run away in fear (how often does that REALLY come up?), ...
... oh yeah, the Paladin doesn't get Magic Vestment spell. Shucks.

Ohh, I love to start it again

I do realize that paladins Divine Favour is puny. But it's the little bit that makes them on par with fighters. Paladins spell list is puny, agreed, but better than the rangers.

Fear... Well, dragons? The only guy who's not impressed is the paladin. Admittedly it's nothing that happens too often... except if there's a party nemesis that loves to cast fear on the barbarian in the middle of enemies.

Granted, the paladins advantage is the same as the often discussed ftr/clr towards the paladin: With a little preparation...
So I'll drop this for now... Just wanted to emphasize, a paladin with low damage output has not been encountered yet in my (relatively) low powered (attribute wise) campaigns.

Bauglir: High Dex may be nice...

str18, dex16, con14, int10, wis8, cha18

Hmm. I'd still rather go with Dex 14. If you are using Point Buy ==> Wis 12 and Dex 14?

 

[green slime]

The reason is Good vs. Evil is easier for DMs. In a typical campaign the PCs are heroes, and are therefore mostly good aligned. Good vs. Evil is also the simplest to picture in a cartoony sort of way for people who live in a culture strongly influenced by Christian ethos.

The net result is that more generatec material focuses on this easier alignment axis, sidelining the conflict between Law vs. Chaos as fodder for IC conflicts & roleplaying.

Certainly it would be possible to run a Law vs. Chaos campaign, but not something for a newbie. IME it would also be difficult to get a team of players to choose a side and stick to it, but YMMV on that point.

I further speculate that a number of people inclined to run a Law vs. Chaos campaign have a sufficiently sophisticated and nuanced perception of moral systems that the standard alignment metaphysics would not appeal to them at all.

Would your friends get excited about being, say, a team of lawful characters who team up with Devils and Inevitables to thwart the dastardly plans of Lillendi and Demons? It is a harder sell.

Sorry Ridley's Cohort, I see this is a lot of speculation and not much substance. And lets face it; there isn't many newbies in our games these days. It is just as difficult to pick a side Law/Chaos as Evil/Good. You are required to do so in the present system, yet it doesn't bear out any real relevance (or least, so little it is laughable).

I humbly disagree with your view on those people with "sophisticated and nuanced perceptions of moral systems". You must admit that comes across as very arrogant...

I could get my friends excited about a RPG game involving washing dishes and vacuuming. And I wouldn't sell it like you attempted. I'd have an ancient (Lawful) Empire holding stand against the forces of chaos, against the inevitable encroaching madness and destruction. This Empire would not hesitate to use devils, inevitables and other implements of Law. The monsters described in the MM are just tools. With the paladins arguing for the release of all the bonded slaves, and arguing against the use of devils, to the deaf ears of the Emperor, who is almost without hope.

 

[Thanee]

Without any particular reason, I just think the whole game is very much focused on good versus evil.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

If you are going to use this rather, um, interesting definition of powerful, you actually need to consider what a "powerful" Fighter or Barbarian build would look like. They would have both higher Con and Wis than a Paladin, and pick up Iron Will. The Barbarian gets a Will bonus while raging, too. Everyone here has amazing Fort saves, so a small difference doesn't matter. The Paladin's Will save may well be lower. Her Refl will be higher, but she will significantly lower HPs, so I do not see that as an edge.

The Paladin's Will save may be lower!? Suuure...

In higher levels saves are about the most important defensive ability.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Bauglir]

Bauglir: High Dex may be nice...

str18, dex16, con14, int10, wis8, cha18

Hmm. I'd still rather go with Dex 14. If you are using Point Buy ==> Wis 12 and Dex 14?

No point buy unfortunately. If we were I would have dropped that cha to 16 and put the points to use elsewhere (namely int, for whirlwind attack - Improved Crit + Weapon Master + Vorpal Falchion + Whirlwind Attack [3.0 rules] = ouch). I considered dex14/con16 but in the end decided to take the offensive option (+1 to ranged attacks) over the defensive one (bonus hps).

 

[green slime]

No point buy unfortunately. If we were I would have dropped that cha to 16 and put the points to use elsewhere (namely int, for whirlwind attack - Improved Crit + Weapon Master + Vorpal Falchion + Whirlwind Attack [3.0 rules] = ouch). I considered dex14/con16 but in the end decided to take the offensive option (+1 to ranged attacks) over the defensive one (bonus hps).

But i think your present build leads to an interesting, different build, which is always more exciting to do than just following the mainstream paladin-tank.

 

[Darklone]

Well... a non spellcasting paladin ... not a good idea IMHO.

 

[green slime]

it is a "mere" 16,000 gp to purchase a +4 Wis increase item... And viola! 2nd level spells become available.

Given that he is mixing in at least 4 levels of Fighter, and will not gain the possibility of spell casting until 10th Paladin level (+3 stat items not withstanding).

Seriously, having access to one 1st and one 2nd level spell is not a big deal at 14th character level.