Whirlwind, Improved Trip and Knockdown

[EOL]

My player pointed out a potentially very nasty combo to me the other night and I was wondering if it's been brought up before and what the conventional wisdom was.

It involves three feats Whirlwind, Improved Trip, and Knockdown (from S&F). A liberal interpretation would seem to suggest that you could make a whirlwind attack, any opponent you did more than 10 points of damage to(Knockdown Feat) you would get to make a free trip attack any one who went down because of that trip attack you would get to make a free attack against (Improved Trip). Essentially allowing you to potentially attack everyone twice and knock them all prone.

He wants to take these feats (he already has whirlwind) and would like to know how I'm going to rule on it. Would you suggest:

1- Knockdown doesn't work with whirlwind.
2- Improved trip doesn't work with Knockdown
3- Limited number of free actions (say 2) so he could trip two people or trip and attack one.
4- Allow it without any restrictions
5- Some other restriction.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Darklone]

Huh

Sue me, but I don't remember where in the DnDFAQ I read about that example... it said something like Improved Trip is not usable with Knock down.

 

[Bobbystopholes]

I'm with Darklone on this one. I read it, but can't remember where exactly. I could be dreaming or smoking the same thing he is, but I do'nt believe Knockdown and Improved Trip can be used together.

Now, the multiple improved Trips I would rule, unless there is something barring it, can be used on all attacks. Just keep the guisarme low and spin. Cleaving or Great Cleaving could add a lot of nastiness to a Whirlwind too. Cleave one guy, hit the next. If he doesn't die, you get another hit because of the WW, then you take him down, cleave into the next guy. If he doesn't die, get your WW hit... etc... etc... etc...

Personally I like the Trip move because if they are on the ground, they can't do a full attack action and at that level, you know they got it.

 

[hong]

I'm with Darklone on this one. I read it, but can't remember where exactly. I could be dreaming or smoking the same thing he is, but I do'nt believe Knockdown and Improved Trip can be used together.

The Knockdown/Improved Trip ban is in the S&F errata, available on the Wizards website.

 

[EOL]

I checked the FAQ and you're right Improved Trip cannot be used with knowckdown. But there's still the question of whether knockdown could be used with Whirlwind? Not quite the nasty combo, but certainly attacking and triping every opponent within five feet is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Artoomis]

I kind of like the idea of a Whirlwind/Knockdown combo.

It sort of what I envision happening if the Tasmanian Devil chartoon character were attacking. Observers essentially see this wild attack that is so fast that you have trouble seeing what happened, and all the opponenets end up on the ground. Cool.

Not over-powerful either, as the feats invloved are numerous and it won't come up all that often.

 

[Crothian]

Whirlwind knockdown is fine. For me, knockdown isn't giving you a second trip attack for free, it's because you hit them so hard they might fall down. By using the trip mechanic they keep it simple with rules people know, but the actiuall manuver is not a trip at all (just lkike the great Throw featin OA).

 

[EOL]

I still have some hesitation to allow this combo. It allows the fighter on top of making an attack against everyone within 5 feet to then have a chance of knocking them down and depriving them of all their iterative attacks. A low levels being knocked down doesn't mean much, but at higher levels you've finally got the guy surrounded and you're ready to unleash the claw/claw/bite or your 4 melee attacks and he attacks everyone of you and knocks 75% of you off your feet.

It's a nice idea, and I like the mechanic, but it feels like it needs an additional feat on top of everything, but maybe I'm just a hardnose DM.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

Yeah, better not allow it. He only spent SIX FEATS on it.

 

[EOL]

Yeah, better not allow it. He only spent SIX FEATS on it.

Ahh yes! The ubiquitious whirlwind defense, used to justify all manner of abuses. Well every single one of those feats is a nice feat in and of itself. If four of the six feats were run, endurance, and skill focus: profession (Baker) and skill focus craft (pottery) then I could see that argument.

Whirlwind is very powerful just as written. Knockdown is very nice against just against a single opponent. Both feats have everything they need to justify taking them without combining. Addittionally I wouldn't classify this as a house rule. Whirlwind attack says, "instead make one melee attack so it only counts as one attack. Knockdown states (I believe, I don't have my books) that you get a trip as part of an (singular) attack. I could certainly see allowing knockdown to be used once in the course of the whirlwind attack, but on every single person?

Sorry, the six feats argument doesn't cut it on this one.