D&D 4E Who else is going to be a deserter when 4e comes out?

[Numion]

Depends on the products of course. A lot of people were going to be deserters when 3E came out, because they had so much invested in 2E. Only a minority of those did that. Maybe they saw 3E as such a big improvement that it was worth it.

3.5E wasn't an improvement enough for me to make the switch from 3.0E. If 4E is a bigger improvement, I'll switch. If it's too much concentrated on the use of minis .. maybe not. Or if I've scaled back my gaming so much that I wouldn't use it much.

But I'll see. I think it's way too early to get stuck in the edition trenches, but I expect a lot more of this kind of extremism in the coming years - or hey, maybe months!

(WOTC: We'll give you a years notice. *Looks at watch*. Aaand now, you have a year.)

 

[SineTheGuy]

I'm already pretty damn resentful at how Wizards released a new version of the core books and then expects everyone to buy it, seeing that the first set was flawed. It's all a cheap money grab, no different from constantly releasing new editions of operating systems or whatever, expecting everyone to buy the new editions, and then making them buy new versions of their products. I still don't have any 3.5 books, but I'm probably going to buy the PHB soon, since it's getting harder to find 3.0 games, and relying on the SRD sounds like a pain. I'm not happy about it.

I like DnD, and I like d20, but I don't like these cheap tactics.

 

[Storm Raven]

I'm already pretty damn resentful at how Wizards released a new version of the core books and then expects everyone to buy it, seeing that the first set was flawed. It's all a cheap money grab, no different from constantly releasing new editions of operating systems or whatever, expecting everyone to buy the new editions, and then making them buy new versions of their products. I still don't have any 3.5 books, but I'm probably going to buy the PHB soon, since it's getting harder to find 3.0 games, and relying on the SRD sounds like a pain. I'm not happy about it.

I like DnD, and I like d20, but I don't like these cheap tactics.

You mean tactics like trying to refine their product based upon what they perceive to be the experiences of their customers? Heaven forfend!

 

[The Shaman]

You mean tactics like trying to refine their product based upon what they perceive to be the experiences of their customers? Heaven forfend!

I dunno...

It does raise legitimate questions about the design process and playtesting that an overhaul was needed so quickly - it lends credence to the idea that the introduction of 3.0 was equal parts substance and hype.

Of course, no game system can be expected to survive contact with actual gamers...

 

[Psychic Warrior]

I'm already pretty damn resentful at how Wizards released a new version of the core books and then expects everyone to buy it, seeing that the first set was flawed. It's all a cheap money grab, no different from constantly releasing new editions of operating systems or whatever, expecting everyone to buy the new editions, and then making them buy new versions of their products. I still don't have any 3.5 books, but I'm probably going to buy the PHB soon, since it's getting harder to find 3.0 games, and relying on the SRD sounds like a pain. I'm not happy about it.

I like DnD, and I like d20, but I don't like these cheap tactics.

Do you shop at the same stores I do? Cause you sound a lot like some folks I ran into there a few months back.

 

[Ranger REG]

You mean tactics like trying to refine their product based upon what they perceive to be the experiences of their customers? Heaven forfend!

I dunno. I heard rumors that they already have corrections and revisions way before the ink on the first printed PHB 3.0e was dried.

Still, it was three years, and even after 3.5e gamers are still giving feedbacks for WotC to improve their products. Maybe instead of compiling three years worth of feedback they should opt for five years worth.

 

[KenM]

I have an email from someone that helped develop 3rd ed. He basically said that that the WOTC buisiness people "drove" them to put out a revsion when they did. So it was money that pushed out 3.$, nothing else.

 

[Staffan]

AU (or AE, I guess) is loosely based on Thomas Covenant.

That's quite an exagerration. It has some stuff that's inspired by the Covenant books (most notably, the Giant race), but the amount of Covenant-inspired material in AE is less than the amount of Tolkien-inspired material in D&D - and I'm one of those who consider Tolkien one of D&D's lesser influences.

 

[Ranger REG]

I have an email from someone that helped develop 3rd ed. He basically said that that the WOTC buisiness people "drove" them to put out a revsion when they did. So it was money that pushed out 3.$, nothing else.

Sheesh! Yet another brilliant business decision they've made to go along with choosing Rokugan for the new Oriental Adventures and putting new Star Wars d20 RPG products on hold.

Where's that damn rolling eyes smiley when you need one here?

 

[Felon]

I agree that Eberron is a pretty bold statement, but I don't think it is what you think it is. Someone fresh from Lord of the Rings or Lieber who is wanting to play in that genre has the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk (such as it is), and a host of other 3rd party settings, not the least of which is Midnight.

FR and Greyhawk are not terribly accessable either. D&D's got a lot of inbred concepts that just don't mesh with high adventure. Too many super-powers, not enough consequences. And of course, 3rd-party products aren't germaine to what I was talking about.

I think what Eberron does is take fantasy and change it in interesting ways. Everything in Eberron is done on a huge scale. The fantastic isn't just fantastic, but its big and in your face.

"In your face", huh? So it's not just high fantasy, it's extreme fantasy. Which is what I said about Eberron before. So why isn't it what I think it is?

Man, I so disagree with this that I don't even know where to start. :\ And having read the 'canons' of Howard or Leiber.... well, until recently Howard has been out of print, and outside of White Wolf, Leiber comes and goes out of print all the time. I've read them. They're classics. Their influence on modern day D&D I think, is very small outside of historical roots. D&D is it's own genre now.

Your disagreement is so extreme that it actually appears to be agreement.

And that is part of the problem. D&D existing as its own genre alienates those who do not want it to be as such.

Exactly. It's inbred to hell and back.

But obviously, those it alienates are in the minority.

Obviously? Where did that word spring out from, Joe? You have some way to gauge all the folks that could become engrossed in D&D but are turned away by the over-the-top silliness of its conventions?

We have Hero, GURPS, Burning Wheel, Tri-Stat, and other games that GMs can freely modify (as they can the d20 system), until it does what they want.

Which, of course, assumes that all gamers are experienced gamers that can putz and tinker (and want to). Pretty fallacious. All the folks clamouring about how great it is that D&D has little resemblance to the fiction that might inspire someone to pick up a PHB are really kidding themselves if they think that's healthy for the growth of the game.

At least that's how I see it. Maybe I'm in the minority but I don't expect D&D to handle pulp fiction at it's core. It's unrealistic. Even in AD&D 1st ed, the magic was too high and the monsters too fantastic.

It's "unrealistic"?

No, they are aiming at new blood fresh from watching Raiders of the Lost Ark et seq., The Mummy et seq., and Pirates of the Carribean, and similar movies.

Oh man, it really is inevitable with any discussion involving Eberron--the obligatory battery of movie references that have little to do with Eberron. D&D doesn't really resemble any of those movies, or anything else a potential gamer can readily identify with. Instead, it's modeled after the power-fantasy rush of video games that an RPG is too slow to compete with.

I'm not bothered by this at all. If I want Tolkienesque fantasy, there are plenty of settings to choose from.

Not in D&D you don't.