D&D 5E Why are 5E Giants Huge size?

[Flamestrike]

If my party tries to fight Balors at first party they’re stupid and that’s a great way, the whole comment here, to read into what I’m saying. I’m encouraging ROLE playing.

Which has nothing to do with challenging encounters (or weak ones).

Your party can talk to monsters no matter what their CR is.

You think you aren’t going to accidentally encounter something outside of you weight class? And the fact is the expectation from modern players is that the party will meet challenges equal to their level. Also if you read the RAW of even OD&D MOST of the time monsters aren’t attacking even on random reaction rolls.

Yeah nah.

Every single published adventure since OD&D through to 5th had a level recommendation, with monsters and encounters set roughly mainly at around that level.

You dont find Balors in the Caves of Chaos for example.

CR remains an important tool for DMs to be able to properly design and balance combat encounters.

Suggesting otherwise is silly.

 

[Flamestrike]

how many Flameskulls can I use to get to 30,000 xp? not sure about the multiplier ...

round one, fireball barrage!

It's not a science, its an art. It requires the application of common sense, a good understanding of your players (and their characters) to accurately create an appropriate challenge.

 

[teitan]

Which has nothing to do with challenging encounters (or weak ones).

Your party can talk to monsters no matter what their CR is.

Yeah nah.

Every single published adventure since OD&D through to 5th had a level recommendation, with monsters and encounters set roughly mainly at around that level.

You dont find Balors in the Caves of Chaos for example.

CR remains an important tool for DMs to be able to properly design and balance combat encounters.

Suggesting otherwise is silly.

Yeah fact. Read the rules again for older editions. An encounter is an encounter even if it’s a role playing encounter... RAW in 5e. I didn’t say it wasn’t an important tool. I said it was garbage. Some important tools are garbage. It’s definitely not a good tool for designing encounters though. At all.

I mean dude. You ever play a Planescape session? Have you ever read the XP rules for older editions? D&D was not a murder hobo game. You might not find BAlors in the Caves of Chaos but that’s because.... they weren’t in the Basic rule book! Holy crap! They weren’t even in BX D&D! Sweet patooty! They weren’t in BECMI!

just because you play murder hobo games doesn’t mean that’s what D&D is, it’s just a way of playing also supported by the modern rules but I’m not the only person on the planet who thinks 5e encounter design rules and CR are garbage because... they’re garbage. But hey, it’s your game, play it how you like but it doesn’t mean you’re right on the historical intent of the game or that the rules are good. I am sure there is someone out there who think HOL is a well designed game too.

 

[teitan]

You see the fundamental difference here is you’re approaching it as a combat game. Everything is there to be killed or conquered. I approach it as a resource management exploration adventure game.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Titans follow Greek myth in that they were servants or children of the gods, and there was a war where they revolted and some went to Evil.

A slight quibble, the titans in Greek mythology were the children of the primordials.

 

[dave2008]

I mean dude. You ever play a Planescape session? Have you ever read the XP rules for older editions? D&D was not a murder hobo game. You might not find BAlors in the Caves of Chaos but that’s because.... they weren’t in the Basic rule book! Holy crap! They weren’t even in BX D&D! Sweet patooty! They weren’t in BECMI!

That is incorrect. They are in the I part of BECMI, but they have a different name: "Roaring Demons" (similar to how they are "Type-VI" demons in 1e and not Balors - which was the name of one type-VI demon, not all of them)

 

[Flamestrike]

You see the fundamental difference here is you’re approaching it as a combat game. Everything is there to be killed or conquered. I approach it as a resource management exploration adventure game.

Ok cool, but literally 90 percent of abilities and spells are based around combat.

Rage, smite, extra attack, sneak attack, most spells, etc etc etc etc.

Published adventures have always primarily been 'Go to dungeon/ exploration area, kill things of your level'. Look at any published adventure in any edition.

Quite frankly you can play it how you want. But that's not what it is.

 

[S'mon]

So what do the monster guidelines say about these two monsters:
CR 9: 205 HP & 62 DPR each for 410 HP and 124 DPR total
CR 16: 310 HP and 104 DPR total

They are not equal and then you also have the focus fire issue. I ham not saying it is a huge difference, but it is a difference. I hope that helps.

Those seem pretty equivalent to me. Focus fire means the PCs will likely drop one of the CR 9s just over half way through the fight, turning DPR from 124 to 62. Average DPR will be more like 186/2=93 across the fight. Alternatively the party are using a lot of AoE, in which case the monsters will drop at close to the same time (so DPR nearer 124), but then with both taking damage, effective hp are closer to 410/2=205 again. Either way, 2 CR9s are about 3 times the threat as 1 CR 9 - a 1.5 XP multiplier.

If high CR monsters seem weak in 5e, it's more because we're used to 3e where threat level doubles every 2 CR, so 2 CR 9 = 1 CR 11. Or 4e where it doubles every 4 levels. Once you apply the multiplier I'd say the numbers are about right. Not that I ever 'build' my encounters, but I do often check the threat level after the fight.

 

[teitan]

Ok cool, but literally 90 percent of abilities and spells are based around combat.

Rage, smite, extra attack, sneak attack, most spells, etc etc etc etc.

Published adventures have always primarily been 'Go to dungeon/ exploration area, kill things of your level'. Look at any published adventure in any edition.

Quite frankly you can play it how you want. But that's not what it is.

Yeah it is the version supported in 1e RAW. Look it up man. B2, which you’ve cited, encourages using role playing to set the goblins and kobolds against each other. The reaction tables indicate monsters only attack on a roll of a 2 in 12 modified by charisma. 3-7 is unfavorable. They don’t like you and will attack if it is reasonable. 8 or higher is friendly. Operating on a bell curve and assuming at least an average of +1 reaction bonus in a party? Well the bell curve gives an average of 4-9. So to me it looks like the average monster encounter they don’t like you and won’t attack you unless you are weaker to a generally favorable, both being an equal outcome with the +1 assumption of a BD&D or AD&D character of a 5-10 on the bell curve so all the sudden the outcome of a reaction check is more often than not... favorable. Meaning willing to parley with the characters rather than fight. You have a Paladin in that 1e party? Well, it’s much better reaction on the average. So... RAW, no it’s not automatic combat and killing things. That’s murder hobo and that is a fine way to play but you’re arguing it’s the intent of the game in all editions. It’s not.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Yeah it is the version supported in 1e RAW. Look it up man. B2, which you’ve cited, encourages using role playing to set the goblins and kobolds against each other. The reaction tables indicate monsters only attack on a roll of a 2 in 12 modified by charisma. 3-7 is unfavorable. They don’t like you and will attack if it is reasonable. 8 or higher is friendly. Operating on a bell curve and assuming at least an average of +1 reaction bonus in a party? Well the bell curve gives an average of 4-9. So to me it looks like the average monster encounter they don’t like you and won’t attack you unless you are weaker to a generally favorable, both being an equal outcome with the +1 assumption of a BD&D or AD&D character of a 5-10 on the bell curve so all the sudden the outcome of a reaction check is more often than not... favorable. Meaning willing to parley with the characters rather than fight. You have a Paladin in that 1e party? Well, it’s much better reaction on the average. So... RAW, no it’s not automatic combat and killing things. That’s murder hobo and that is a fine way to play but you’re arguing it’s the intent of the game in all editions. It’s not.

Temple of Elemental Evil provides the opportunity to work with various factions against the others. Ofc none of my tables ever took that path.