D&D 5E Why are Derro weapons so stupid?

[Cap'n Kobold]

As has been pointed out, NPCs are generally built to follow a concept rather than rules-mechanics min/maxing.

In the confines of the underdark, a long range weapon is less necessary, and not having to reload every shot is handy - just not represented in the non-granular 5th ed combat system.
The reasoning behind the spear is that Derro are slavers. They gang up to give advantage on trips and hit or overbear their opponents while they are down. Remember that a lot of the things that they fight are Svirfneblin or Drow, not Strength-optimised PCs.

Also, spears or similar weapons are generally the primary weapon for soldiers and guards pretty much since organised warfare began. Its something that would delineate them from civilian NPCs who would likely also have daggers.

If the lack of mechanical optimisation in published adventure paths upsets you to that degree, change it to suit your game. That's always the Dm's prerogative. Give them shortswords or special racial rules.

 

[ccs]

You need to keep in mind that the Derro weapon were introduced with the Derro under AD&D 1st edition rule where the derro weapon: secari (dagger), Hook-fauchard (the aboved mentionned hooked spear), the repeating crossbow, spiked buckler and aklys (tethered club) were pretty effective. Primarely thank to their ability to entangle/trip or dismount/topple an opponent, rendering them prone (making them easier to attack or overbear as they would lose dex bonus in addition to AC penalty) and, expecially for the crossbow, the Armour class adjustment table made a lot of those weapons more appealing.

Yes, the Fauchard had a 25% to trip/dismount, the spiked buckler could be used in melee = to a dagger, and that x-bow? It had a range of 120', fired twice/round, and the bolts (though only a d3 each) were covered with a poison that inflicted 2d6 extra damage (save for 1/2).
And then there was that weapon vrs AC chart (that was often ignored)....
The average Derro was also a 3 HD creature.
You also weren't likely to run into small groups of them. (# appearing was 3-30 - with details for various leader types present based on the #)
So while any 1 Derro wasn't too tough on it's own.....

Believe me, I know these little bastards well - we've been hacking through them (and Koa-Touans) for the past 12+ sessions in our current 1e game. I'm really tired of getting yanked off my feet, making poison saves & being blasted by lightning/Magic Missles from their well screened leader/mage types.
Their local extinction will bring quite a smile to my characters face.

So like I said, for 5e up the RoF & improve their stats.

 

[Demetrios1453]

As others have said - derro as a race are insane, so weapon optimization is probably not one of their priorities. And, as others have said as well, if this irks you, change it!

 

[Endur]

But I can't help but think that what's really going on here is that whoever converted them to 5E tried to be faithful to the original derro's concept without thinking too hard about current game mechanics, and made something that uses a pair of weapons that are just stupid for them to be using. Meanwhile, certain PCs will salivate over the prospect of getting their mitts on those repeating crossbows, and one or two might even be interested in the hooked spears.

You guessed it. The Derro's special weapons were effective in AD&D, but the 5e translation isn't as useful for the Derro due to 5e game mechanics, although leveled PCs can definitely benefit from the items.

To improve the crossbow, I'd probably let the Derro use a bonus action with the repeating crossbow to fire another bolt, but it takes an action to reload the crossbow. To improve the spear, I'd add a similar bonus.

 

[Tony Vargas]

but that does little more than mitigate the penalty of using their spears instead of, say, daggers (-1 STR for 1d4-1 dmg as opposed to +2 DEX for 1d4+2 dmg). And if they had TWO daggers, or (dare I think it) two SHORT SWORDS, it gets even better for them.

IIRC, an objection like this came up for playtest Kobolds, as well, originally sucking with the spear in melee while being competent at range with the sling, they were switched to daggers.

Like it or not rules are essentially the 'laws of physics' the NPCs live with.

Nothing stops the DM from making the Derro's spears finesseable (for them), though, or making up the deficiency in any other way that works for him.

 

[CapnZapp]

I wish the Wotc defenders would stop saying "if you don't like it change it".

And instead acknowledge poor design choices when they see it.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

yes. Poor design choice. A simple athletics check is better than using that weapon, since it is more difficult to hit than rolling a 9 on their athletic checks... except in those cases where they have advantage on attack rolls, or fight large opponents they normally could not trip. And the ability to trip on an opportunity attack. So even when suboptimal in many situations, the weapon does has its uses as well as a crossbow they can use one handed without worries about a free hand to reload.

What I really do miss is the derro inate magic from 3rd edition which only droki has access to. And maybe a dagger they can use when damage is their main concern.

 

[SkidAce]

I wish the Wotc defenders would stop saying "if you don't like it change it".

And instead acknowledge poor design choices when they see it.

I don't agree that everything suboptimal is a bad design choice.

So my honest answer is, derro weapons don't bother me that much. If they do bother someone, I think changing them slightly to fit your campaign is the best answer.

No Wotc defending involved.

 

[Salamandyr]

Derro weapons make sense; it's the rules that don't. So hang the rules, or rather, change your view of them. Monster attack bonus and damage is tracked more based on CR rather than stat or weapon choice, so let the weapon choice be a cosmetic choice and don't worry too much about whether it fits the "rules" the players play by. Maybe Derro have special training with their racial weapons? Who knows.

Game rules are ever only going to be an imperfect model for the game world you're trying to create, so don't let them constrain fun.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I wish the Wotc defenders would stop saying "if you don't like it change it". And instead acknowledge poor design choices when they see it.

5e really is designed with the idea that you'll change what you don't like or fill in what's missing, though.

It's not a poor design choice to focus less on mechanical design and more on story or feel (well, it is, for a certain sense of 'poor'), it's just a different emphasis.

So, yes, if, as a DM, you find there's a detail missing, fill it in, out of place, move it, sub-optimal, tune it up, broke, fix it. It's part of your job as an Empowered 5e DM.