why are orbs good again?

[evilbob]

I am sure they are good... I remember thinking they were good. But after looking again last night I couldn't figure out why. I mean, sure they're an implement that can have bonuses, and they key off Wisdom which is good for two of the at-will powers, but what makes an orb better than any other implement?

They can do 3 things, choose one per encounter:
- make cloud of daggers stick around 1 more round (to do Wis damage)
- make ray of frost slow something 1 more round
- cause something to take -Wis to a single save

(Granted, hopefully with some supplements the number of at-will powers this can affect will go up.)

I guess the problem is that I just don't see how nice the first two options are, and have you actually looked at how many wizard spells require a save? There's one at level 1: sleep. (And frankly, it kinda sucks in my experience.) And until you're in epic tier, there really are not many. At all.

And saves generally favor the saver. By a lot. And when you're talking about elite or solo monsters... even spell focus + 18 wis + orb = you've just made a solo monster have ONLY a 50% chance to make a single save. Whee.

Except again for some of the epic-tier spells (hello, retraining), it seems like it would be a much better idea to just go with the wand for +Dex to hit once per encounter or even the staff for the +1 AC bonus and +Con 1/enc. At least those will be actively used much more often at low levels, until you manage to get some decent spells that give saves. Or better yet: take the 2nd implement feat once you get to paragon tier. That's about when orbs would start to be useful.

Can anyone remind me why everyone seems to be ga-ga over orbs again? I am sure I'm probably missing something...

 

[Andur]

It causes a single creature to take a -Wis Mod to all saves from a single effect in which the Wizard has placed upon the creature with a duration Save Ends.

Given no creature saving throw modifiers and only a 14 in Wis, that's a -2 to saves or it must save on a 12 or better, at higher levels you are talking about the possibility of having that 14 Wis be a 20, so then it is a 15 or better save...

 

[keterys]

The 'sucky' Sleep spell with the 'sucky' orb option can make for a 'no save, you die' situation for a single target at high level.

 

[Nifft]

- cause something to take -Wis to a single save
(...)
There's one at level 1: sleep.

That's half of it. There are combinations of effects that can be expected to keep a single target asleep for quite a long time, and note that in this edition, stabbing a critter doesn't break the effect.

Can anyone remind me why everyone seems to be ga-ga over orbs again? I am sure I'm probably missing something...

Orbs, as magic items, seem to have better daily effects than Wands or Staves.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Baumi]

The At-Wills Effect is really not that great, but the -Will is great.

But you got two things wrong ... first it is not only for one round but, it lasts till the spell effect is saved, which can take several rounds and second there are quite a few Powers with "Save" lie Acid Arrow, Fire Shroud, Web,...

 

[quill18]

And saves generally favor the saver. By a lot. And when you're talking about elite or solo monsters... even spell focus + 18 wis + orb = you've just made a solo monster have ONLY a 50% chance to make a single save. Whee.

There are very, very few solo monsters.

For standard opponents, which represent the vast majority of foes, their save chance is going from 55% to 15%. That's HUGE and has a very good chance of eliminating them from a battle completely -- and you can't ignore that.

For elite opponents, the save chance is going from 65% to 25%. That's still a pretty good amount of lockdown.

Solo encounters are RARE. Very, very rare. In any given fight, if you manage to shutdown the solo creature, you have literally eliminated all opposition. As such, it's very important that they can't be shutdown for a full fight by a single effect, which is why they get +5 to their saves.

Still, you are dropping their success rate from 80% down to 40%. Whereas your spell was only likely to affect them for a single turn (i.e. they were going to make their first save), it is now likely that they will be affected for at least two rounds.

That's freaking HUGE! You are fighting a single opponent that can dish out ridiculous amounts of damage in a round, and by using an orb you have (most likely) prevented him from acting at his full potential for an extra round.

Consider the Sleep spell. If you can make it so that a dragon fails his save and falls asleep even for a single round, you have DRASTICALLY altered the battle. That's a full round where you don't take damage. That's a full round where you get Combat Advantage against the dragon. This is likely to be the ONLY enemy in the fight, and you've turned him off.

 

[evilbob]

The 'sucky' Sleep spell with the 'sucky' orb option can make for a 'no save, you die' situation for a single target at high level.

Please explain/link to how this is possible. I honestly cannot come up with a way to do it, with the single exception of making a wizard with a starting 18+ Wis, putting every stat gain into Wis, and taking spell focus. Then, at level 24 or 28, you'll have a -10 to one save for one creature, and as long as it isn't elite or solo it will auto-fail against sleeping for one round. But all this is at the expense of every other thing you could do without putting a lot of points into Wis, and it only works once per encounter for one round.

And again: this is epic-tier, at least how I can see it. Why not take a staff at level 1 and then retrain at level 24 to orb (and pick up sleep then)?

 

[Baumi]

By the way ... I think Orb's are great, but if you don't like them, don't take them. Wands and Staffs are great choices too, just with another focus (Wands for AoE Minion Kills and short Daily Attacks and Staffs for allrounders and Warrior-Mages).

 

[evilbob]

But you got two things wrong ... first it is not only for one round but, it lasts till the spell effect is saved, which can take several rounds and second there are quite a few Powers with "Save" lie Acid Arrow, Fire Shroud, Web,...

Ok, you're totally right about acid arrow - I missed that one. So there's two save ends spells at level 1.

As for the other point: the creature takes a penalty to saves until it saves? If this is correct then yes, that is much better. I thought it was for one round only.

 

[Baumi]

Please explain/link to how this is possible. I honestly cannot come up with a way to do it, with the single exception of making a wizard with a starting 18+ Wis, putting every stat gain into Wis, and taking spell focus. Then, at level 24 or 28, you'll have a -10 to one save for one creature, and as long as it isn't elite or solo it will auto-fail against sleeping for one round. But all this is at the expense of every other thing you could do without putting a lot of points into Wis, and it only works once per encounter for one round.

And again: this is epic-tier, at least how I can see it. Why not take a staff at level 1 and then retrain at level 24 to orb (and pick up sleep then)?

Orb works longer than one Round.

I don't think that you can retrain your Class-Features ... but since you can take the Second Implement FEAT you could retrain thant.