why are orbs good again?

[Quicken]

note that in this edition, stabbing a critter doesn't break the effect.

I'm confused. Does everyone agree with this? to my reading sleep is (as has been with previous editions) a spell affect to put someone to sleep. Not a "magical sleep" just an ordinary nap. There are quite simple rules for waking someone asleep including taking damage.

 

[Nifft]

I'm confused. Does everyone agree with this? to my reading sleep is (as has been with previous editions) a spell affect to put someone to sleep. Not a "magical sleep" just an ordinary nap. There are quite simple rules for waking someone asleep including taking damage.

It's due for an errata for sure, but right now the consensus I've seen is: (save ends), and nothing else does.

Cheers, -- N

 

[keterys]

... hey, they wake up after 5 minutes, too, I believe.

Yeah, they changed it from asleep to unconscious, but didn't add the 'or until damaged' to it for some reason.

 

[small pumpkin man]

btw, the demigod epic choice can bump up the wis of the dwarf or elf wizard to 30, for that extra 5% penalty. You can also buy an extra round if a Deadly Trickster makes a solo's save into a 1, after a successful save.

Uh, I assumed you only start with 16 wisdom, since you need 12 chr and 16 int as well.

Also, I believe that RAI the monster would have to succeed on a saving throw vs. the specific effect that is being "orbed". It would
be silly for a high fort, low will monster to be more likely to throw off a sleep effect because someone cast Fire Shroud on it. So I would rule that a creature making a save vs. Slow does not negate the penalty for saving vs. being unconscious. But on the other hand, the penalty only applies if the creature *gets* unconscious.

You save against each effect seperately, the orb will only give a penalty to one effect, however it's not obvious when you can start to apply the penalty, currently I'm assuming you can do it after the attack hits, allthough that may not be the case.

Got it. The Deadly Trickster friend makes the critter fail the save vs. slow ("you rolled a 1, dude"). Then the Demigod Orb wielding Wizard applies the penalty to Sleep, and shuts the monster down, unless the creature is a solo, in which case he probably shuts the monsters down (20% chance of recovery). Of course, some creatures are immune to sleep.

Mind you, you can also do this at high levels with Legion's Hold. Stunned isn't as good as Unconscious, but is pretty much a fight-winner.

Back to low-levels. Well, the orb + sleep trick could buy the party an extra round or two. If the creature doesn't go unconscious, you can use the orb on an at will.

 

[Saitou]

I like how a first level spell is the most powerful effect in the game.

 

[Nifft]

I like how a first level spell is the most powerful effect in the game.

"1e feel".

Cheers, -- N

 

[evilbob]

It's due for an errata for sure, but right now the consensus I've seen is: (save ends), and nothing else does.

Although it seems reasonable that a DM could give a bonus to the save to wake up equal to the damage taken or some other static number (+2 per hit, blanket +5 if takes damage, etc.).

Although it is also reasonable that nothing other than a save wakes you up since it is magical sleep and I am not sure the designers dreamed of someone's save being reduced to the point that they could not. Usually saves are stacked on the side of the one saving.

 

[Roxlimn]

The orb is certainly worthy of respect, if only for its ability to multiturn shutdown an enemy at the higher levels, but I think that both the Staff and the Wand are competitive choices as well, despite the Wand doubling up Dex and Int on the Reflex defense.

The reason I think this is so is because all of the bonuses they provide are not factored to scale - that is, they can scale against variables that don't. The enemy's save against "save ends" effects are obviously of this nature, but the Wand's attack bonuses also are stacked on top of every other scaling attack bonuses, so its end effect is that it gives you a scaling advantage against an attack bonus/defense bonus relationship that's otherwise relatively stable.

What this essentially means in relation to the Orb is that the Wand allows you to nail an effect more surely, whereas an Orb allows you to keep that effect going more surely.

Assuming that we keep the relationships more or less the same, casting Sleep using a wand with a +6 Dex bonus improves the initial to-hit by 30%. If you're only hitting a Solo or Elite 40% of the time, you now will hit 70%, with an almost assured hit on a reroll.

If the enemy saves 80% of the time, then you chances to knock him unconscious for 1 round is about 14% on the first round, barring other influences; however, you retain an 70% chance to slow him.

Conversely with a +6 Wis debuffing the 80% to 50%, but not improving the to-hit, you have a greater chance (20%) to get him unconscious, but a lesser chance to get him slowed (only 40%)

As you advance in levels, you get the chance to recast Sleep on a round-to-round basis until you hit and then apply the Orb effect, but until then, you're basically doing nothing. It's like Orcus is status-locking you without even trying.

The Wand's effect is comparable to the Orb's in terms of Sleep, but MUCH better in that you can use it to much better effect on things that are so powerful than they don't even have continuing effects. What I'm talking about here is obviously something like Thunderclap. If I had to choose an encounter power I would be able to spam as an Archmage over and over again, it would have to be that. Orb doesn't help me to nail Thunderclap. Wand will. Once I hit with a Thunderclap, the next one is at Combat Advantage and gets +2 to hit. Even better, I status lock the Solo in a very solid way for 2 rounds.

If you coordinate stun-locks party-wide, you can status lock a Solo pretty much for most of the encounter.

This is much better than trying to hit the Solo with Sleep over and over trying to get it unconscious.

Of course, there are other ways to ensure getting your spell to stick, and there are also other ways to debuff an enemy's saves (Spell Focus for the latter, BattleMage for the former), but in general, I think the Wand's to hit bonus is a more powerful effect than the Orb's save debuff, which is why it got mapped to a redundant Defense stat and doesn't have secondary powers.

 

[evilbob]

That's a very good argument. Basically, you're saying that a wand is powerful because it works with any spell, as opposed to an orb that is very specific to certain spells.

My only counter would be that you get a max of 4 encounters and 4 dailies, so it would be possible to choose only spells that the orb works with, thus nullifying your advantage - but certainly that ignores the range of options available to the wand.

 

[drachasor]

That's a very good argument. Basically, you're saying that a wand is powerful because it works with any spell, as opposed to an orb that is very specific to certain spells.

My only counter would be that you get a max of 4 encounters and 4 dailies, so it would be possible to choose only spells that the orb works with, thus nullifying your advantage - but certainly that ignores the range of options available to the wand.

Unfortunately, there are no encounter spells with "save ends", so you are stuck with using Dailies for the Orb. In fact, the Orb can't ever do anything with encounter spells or Dailies that don't have "save ends", which is bad on a lot of levels. The Wall spells, for instance, are great but don't have any such effect with them and they are Dailies. Furthermore, a lot of great controlling effects make Zones, which can be used very, very effectively without relying on enemies failing their saves.

Orbs are great for evening out the save bonus of Solos, but they aren't that great otherwise, imho. Wands have a much more common use. Right now I am leaning towards a wand for a wizard I am making.