Why are wizards always getting nerfed?

[Cyraneth]

They won't though. A wand has 50 charges when created... (Look to original post for full message.)

First of all, let me remind you of the pathetic save DCs of wands, staves, and rods (minimum possible). And second, try to add together what those items would cost the wizard, compared to the few potions of heal a fighter needs to last at least as long. If a wizard needed to rely that much on expendable items everytime, he would require even more gold than he already does (for scribing spells into his books, crafting items for the party, etc.).

- Cyraneth

Note: Potions of heal are possible, thanks to the Master Alchemist prestige class (see Magic of Faerûn).

 

[mmu1]

Note: Potions of heal are possible, thanks to the Master Alchemist prestige class (see Magic of Faerûn).

In that case, so are Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus at +2 each, and Spellcasting Prodigy, and Sun Elves with +2 Int, for a 12th level Wizard with an effective Int of 26 with a +4 item and a measly starting Int of 15, with 6th level spells of their chosen school with a save DC of 28, and we're not even getting into prestige classes yet.

Wizards got nerfed, because fighters can get potions that can only be created if you take a PrC that's only available in a non-core book for a specific setting, that you need to be 14th level to create (provided you somehow make the requirements of 10 ranks of Alchemy as a 10th level cleric, or are a wizard and have someone on hand to cast Heal for you) and that have a market price of 3300 gold and cost 132xp to make. Right.

 

[Cyraneth]

In that case, so are Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus at +2 each, and Spellcasting Prodigy, and Sun Elves with +2 Int, for a 12th level Wizard with an effective Int of 26 with a +4 item and a measly starting Int of 15, with 6th level spells of their chosen school with a save DC of 28, and we're not even getting into prestige classes yet.

Wizards got nerfed, because fighters can get potions that can only be created if you take a PrC that's only available in a non-core book for a specific setting, that you need to be 14th level to create (provided you somehow make the requirements of 10 ranks of Alchemy as a 10th level cleric, or are a wizard and have someone on hand to cast Heal for you) and that have a market price of 3300 gold and cost 132xp to make. Right.

Well, a cleric can easily meet the requirement now, as Alchemy is now Craft (a cleric class skill), and while Spell Focus has been nerfed, the Master Alchemist class hasn't. And you don't need to take the prestige class. Just find some guy with it.

But anyway, I was merely using potions of heal as an example. A cleric could make "gauntlets of heal" that enable the wielder to cast heal three times per day at a relatively low cost. The real point was comparing a wizard's expenses to a fighter's.

- Cyraneth

 

[Darkness]

... the pathetic save DCs of wands, staves, and rods (minimum possible). ...

Staffs no longer have such low save DCs in 3.5:

... [staffs] use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher than the caster level of the staff.

 

[LordAO]

Wizards have to do what no other class does - pay money just to use their abilities.

The cost of scribing spells - even in 3.5 - is crippling.

And if your spellbook is ever lost, stolen or destroyed, you are screwed. No other character class has to put so much stock into a single item, which they must carry with them, to get their primary ability.

And comparing Wizards to Clerics:

1) Clerics get d8 HD, Wizards d4

2) Clerics get the medium attack bonus, Wizards get the weakest

3) Clerics get good Fort and Will saves, Wizards only Will

4) Clerics can cast in armor with no difficulty, Wizards suffer a crippling arcane spell failure chance.

5) Clerics get all simple weapons, Wizards only a few.

6) Clerics get more spells per day than Wizards do, even without domains.

7) Clerics get domain spells, without the significant loss of schools a Wizard suffers for specialization.

8) Clerics get domain powers and turning, Wizards a familiar (I'll leave it to you to figure out which is far better than the other).

9) Wizards get bonus feats (wow, he's ahead - for once).

10) Clerics have more class skills than Wizards.

11) Clerics get all their spells for free as they level up, Wizards must pay a great deal of money and time to learn new spells, and has to carry them around in a spellbook, which leaves him vulnerable. And before they can even learn a spell, they must find, buy or design it.

12) Both classes have powerful and versatile spell selections, each emphasizing a different focus. While there are more Wizards spells, a Wizard has immense difficulty learning spells compared to the Cleric, and the cost of scribing new spells prevents him from learning very many.

And the winner is:

The Cleric, no contest.

 

[Darkness]

Wizards have to do what no other class does - pay money just to use their abilities.

The cost of scribing spells - even in 3.5 - is crippling.

And if your spellbook is ever lost, stolen or destroyed, you are screwed. No other character class has to put so much stock into a single item, which they must carry with them, to get their primary ability.

Fighter.

 

[Cyraneth]

Fighter.

How so? Just let him twist off a branch from a nearby tree and use it as a club. He might not be able to use Weapon Focus and such, but he still benefits from almost every other aspect of his class: High hit points, attack bonus, many feats that are useful regardless of weapon held. A wizard without his spellbook is reduced to a fancy commoner.

- Cyraneth

 

[ForceUser]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned metamagics yet. Metamagic feats are the bread and butter of a 3E wizard, and should be taken into account when comparing him, power-wise, to wizards from previous editions. Whereas wizards in previous editions simply cast the spells as listed, 3E wizards have the ability to double the range of a spell, widen its area of effect, increase its save DC, increase its damage, remove verbal or somatic components, and drastically reduce the casting times of lower level spells. Wizards in previous editions could do none of these things.

I've played in an archtypal 3E Greyhawk game for over a year now. By archtypal I mean 28-point buy, core and hardback WotC books only, as-the-die-lies hit points, and DMG-standard level-appropriate magical loot. As far as I'm concerned, it's difficult to get more "standard D&D" than in this campaign. Dcollins' argument is impressive and he makes some interesting points, but having fought multiple 3.0 and 3.5 wizards in this campaign, I can tell you all that cleverly played wizards are still to be feared in 3rd edition, any hypothetical "edition nerfs" notwithstanding. There really is no substitute for taking out four 14th-level PCs with an empowered cone of cold, followed up by a quickened lightning bolt. Even at 14th-level, player characters are dying when that kind of damage comes down the pipe. I've seen it. I've watched the damage die rolls, the saves DCs, the botched Reflex saves, and the dead characters. I've seen a single 13th-level lich wizard pick apart an entire party of nine 10th-12th level PCs with cunning and precision.

No arguement in this thread, no matter how well-rationalized, is going to convince me that a properly-played high level wizard is a wimp when stacked up against his ancestors or contemporaries. He isn't.

 

[Technik4]

A wizard without his spellbook is reduced to a fancy commoner.

Unless the wizard with pushing 18-20 Int (assuming mid-level) took this magical feat called "Spell Mastery" which just happens to be designed for just a contingency. Concerning those wands with "low saves", it doesnt really matter. Magic Missile clearly has no problem and for fireball and lightning bolt allow me to point out, once again, in this hypothetical all-day gore fest the combatants must, inherently, be some sort of low level mook. A mook is always afraid of a DC 14, but even if he passes his save he is taking 5d6 damage which will be MORE than enough to kill him.

As for these mythical potions of heal, please. While we are discussing a fantasy game and speaking of abstract hypothetical situations there is no call for including an item which can only be made via a prc (optional rule) in one setting. The fact is, a fighter buying regular potions will buy more than his fair share, and probably at least half of what those wands cost the wizard. Remember, those wands are supplementing the wizard and each one has the capacity to kill at least 100 mooks (so 300 total). A fighter going after 300 mooks will still get hit at least 30 times (enemy rolls a 20) and depending on AC some of those may be criticals. This is assuming that the fighter only allows each enemy 1 attack on him and that they need a 20 to hit (and between flanking and charging, they should be able to get a hit in the 18-20 range). Thats a lot of potions.

This argument really is moot. Either you think they are or you think they aren't but clearly reading through this isn't changing anyone's mind.

As far as cleric vs wizard, the points above are true but misleading. While balancing a class with roleplaying restrictions is not considered good design philosophy in 3e, the cleric does have this element very easily applied by the very nature of the class. Your spells are dependant on a higher power, should said higher power think you are not acting in their best interests, all spell use could (and should) be cut off. Then the cleric is reduced to a fancy warrior.

Look at Raistlin. While clerics are mechanically more powerful, they will never be able to challenge gods as well as wizards (who don't suffer at all from going against gods - except maybe in Faerun with the Weave) among a myriad of other things.

Technik

 

[Bauglir]

Or another way to look at the same situation is to say that the cleric automatically holds the support of (depending on deity and world) a potentially large and powerful organisation, which can not be said for other classes...