Why Convert to d20?

[Geoff Watson]

I also don't understand the desire for every system to have a d20 conversion. To me, one of the following criteria must be met for an existing game to benefit from a d20 conversion:

2. A system that was a great concept but horribly implemented, that would benefit from a new core mechanic. Was Deadlands so crippled by its gameplay that it needed to be made d20?

Well, Shadowrun meets this criteria. The SR system is really bad.

Geoff.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

d20 is not the end-all-be-all of systems that it needs everything converted to it. And when you do, you essentially are catering to the "lowest common denominator" since D&D is one of the most recognizable brands and more than likely most gamers have played one or two games of it.

Or an non-arrogant/elitist way of saying it may be that it is catering to the most popular roleplaying game- that has a large player base and was often the gateway rpg for people who now play other rpg's.

Extreme examples to be sure, but variety is the spice of life.

Considering how busy the lives of my group members are- this is nonsense. We play rpg's for variety- outside of work, family, and other social/economic obligations.

It is a shame some gamers just can't respect how other gamer's wish to play.

SD

 

[Vigilance]

I am the lowest common denominator!

Well, first let me say, I consider that phrase to be horribly elitist, so I will wear it as a badge of honor.

Now to the purpose of my post.

I have the distinction (infamy?) of having tried to bend the d20 system every which way, both to superheroes (in the upcoming Vigilance from MEG), and to sci-fi starship combat (Blood and Space coming in print in April, and available now at rpgnow).

I have to say that, of the universal systems I have played (Hero, GURPs, and d20), d20 is the MOST universal, and the BEST able to handle widely differing genres.

Although M&M took a very different, OGL tack (and a good one at that), I went straight d20 with Vigilance, you pick an Origin, a Class, roll your HP every level, take prestige classes at higher levels, the whole nine yards.

And it works just fine.


D20 ALSO works just fine for combat between two starfighters.

I find it the best system I have ever worked with.

Im not getting rich off of d20. If I didnt like it, Id write for another system.

The idea that the writers and game companies are just catering to some mindless mob, and that the people who play and GM the game ARE the mindless mob (the "lowest common denominator"), is just silly.

D20 isnt the most popular game on the planet because of a marketing fluke. Its the BEST game system out there.

But this is the opinion of the lowest common denominator.

 

[Corinth]

The overwhelming majority of gamers are d20 gamers, specifically D&D gamers, and they don't want to use any other game engine; you have no chance whatsoever to sell it to them if it's not d20.

A d20 conversion opens the door to that majority gamer market. To not do so is to cut off your nose to spite your face. In the case of Shadowrun, it's nothing more than D&D with guns and cyberware; there's no reason at all to not convert to d20.

 

[TeeSeeJay]

I've got to say that the response to my LCD comment is a bit puzzling. But hey, it's not my fault if you think LCD means "mindless mob." If your image of the LCD is a fat, sweaty, beer-drinking frat boy wholly consumed by the desire for football, date-rape, and brand-name products -- hey, that's not my responsibility.

But I'll say it anyway. Lowest Common Denominator isn't elitist, and it doesn't connote a sheeplike mentality. It just means the largest group with something in common. For the RPG crowd, that's the d20 game -- or more specifically, the D&D game. Like it or not. Tough. That you all have something in common, and that there's a lot of you, doesn't make your choice bad, wrong, or immoral. It's the people OUTSIDE the LCD that are elitist -- the thin, clean aristocracy with country club memberships and who pay more to put a roof over their horse's head than you pay in rent.

Maybe there's a class of gamer who's elitist, but it ain't me, babe. I play D&D, and I play d20 modern. I'm part of the LCD just like you.

I started this thread to stir a discussion about how much is too much when it comes to d20 conversion, and is it always going to be worthwhile? A lot of you think it's totally worth it for your games, some of you don't.

Me? I'm starting up a d20 Modern Dark*Matter game, so what's that tell ya?

But enough with the LCD posturing. Get over it.

 

[Hollywood]

Or an non-arrogant/elitist way of saying it may be that it is catering to the most popular roleplaying game- that has a large player base and was often the gateway rpg for people who now play other rpg's.

Uh, why do people who are playing other RPGs want to go to the d20 RPG? Why should they have to leave their games for d20 just because D&D happens to be popular?

Converting all sorts of games such as ShadowRun, MechWarrior, the DP9 games, etc. to d20 just for the sake of it or because D&D is popular is silly. If publishers want to go to the trouble of giving d20 stats for their material, then that opens it up to more people.

Considering how busy the lives of my group members are- this is nonsense. We play rpg's for variety- outside of work, family, and other social/economic obligations.

This is arguement doesn't hold much water as almost everyone is busy with life [or I'd hope they are]. The group I game with gets together roughly once a month if we're lucky because of life and schedule meshing. Yet guess what? We also do play other roleplaying games too even some wargaming such as Necomunda or Dawn of Aces. The "time" arguement basically says that because we, and I speak of the group I game with, are so busy with life that we can only game one a month that we should have, done for us, d20 conversions of Necromunda, Dawn of Aces, Paranoia, MiB, etc. just because our "core" game happens to be D&D. What exactly is the fun in that?

The overwhelming majority of gamers are d20 gamers, specifically D&D gamers, and they don't want to use any other game engine; you have no chance whatsoever to sell it to them if it's not d20.

Great, now prove the two statements you make are actually fact.

I have to say that, of the universal systems I have played (Hero, GURPs, and d20), d20 is the MOST universal, and the BEST able to handle widely differing genres.

We have differing opinions. The simpler the system, the easier it is to translate between systems. D&D is quite complex, enough so it takes basically 2 books [PH and DMG] to describe.

Although M&M took a very different, OGL tack (and a good one at that), I went straight d20 with Vigilance, you pick an Origin, a Class, roll your HP every level, take prestige classes at higher levels, the whole nine yards.

M&M didn't just take an OGL tack, they stripped and streamlined their ruleset to tailor it to best represent the game they wanted to protray. Sure, there is a core thats the same as other d20 games, but there is a lot thats not.

And it works just fine.

The author needs to say that! Personally I'm not particularly interested in playing D&D in different genres.

The idea that the writers and game companies are just catering to some mindless mob, and that the people who play and GM the game ARE the mindless mob (the "lowest common denominator"), is just silly.

No, what they are catering too is the "preceived" majority of gamers who play ONLY D&D or d20 because they either don't have time, desire, knowledge of, or have been mass-marketed to death not to experience other systems.

Its the BEST game system out there.

Says who? Definetly to me its not. I play D&D because I've played D&D since 82/83. 3rd Ed. has its problems, but it seems to flow better than the other revisions in most cases. Obviously its not to the designer of M&M since he modified quite a bit of it. Its obviously not to the guys producing HERO or GURPS or the guys over at DP9. And so forth.

Variety is the spice of life... which is the beauty of it, yer welcome to your d20 spice! I'll just take a little less d20 spice than you.

Saying d20/D&D is the best system out there is like saying that because currently Ford sells the most SUVs that they are the best SUVs ever made.

 

[Geoff Watson]

I've got to say that the response to my LCD comment is a bit puzzling. But hey, it's not my fault if you think LCD means "mindless mob." If your image of the LCD is a fat, sweaty, beer-drinking frat boy wholly consumed by the desire for football, date-rape, and brand-name products -- hey, that's not my responsibility.

That's what most people mean (morons) when they use LCD in a non-mathematical sense, so why wouldn't they think you meant it in an insulting fashion?

Geoff.

 

[MGibster]

What other reasons can you think of that would actually merit a d20 conversion? What games would be good examples of those two criteria?

To further the discussion, here's HORRIBLE reasons for a d20 conversion: For the Hell of it/Just Because/so it can cater to the lowest common denominator. I mean, why go through all the effort?

They go through the trouble because they think the d20 system will be more popular. Although I don't like the d20 rules for every game I don't think that is a horrible reason for companies to convert. I've had a heck of a time getting people to play anything other then a d20 game. Some people get stuck on one system and they don't really want to learn another.

Marc

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Another reason to "convert" to d20 is to start fresh on something that has no game associated with it or was only tangentially used by other game systems. Fafhrd and Gray Mouser d20, for example... Conan d20 (though it is now going to be supported commercially) or Barsoom d20.

There is certainly something to be said for d20's popularity, too. If you want to run a game in MERP but the people you play with already know d20 and aren't interested in learning a new system, then why not convert to d20 -- you still get to play in the setting you wanted, you can even make it grittier than regular d20 (and no one is likely to mind), and you can still find players. My group in high school was much more willing to play Gamma World and Star Frontiers than Twilight2000 or Traveller not because of the settings, but because the first two were similar in mechanics to D&D and AD&D, which we had all played for a number of years.

If I were going to start a new game tomorrow, I would try to get people involved in something like Arrowflight, but if no one was interested, I would just as happily find something D20 to do.

 

[Psion]

I also don't understand the desire for every system to have a d20 conversion. To me, one of the following criteria must be met for an existing game to benefit from a d20 conversion:
(snip)
2. A system that was a great concept but horribly implemented, that would benefit from a new core mechanic. Was Deadlands so crippled by its gameplay that it needed to be made d20?

Some people think so, yes. But some people also think PEG did a rather poor job with their d20 version, so that didn't help much.

What other reasons can you think of that would actually merit a d20 conversion? What games would be good examples of those two criteria?

Because more people play it and it's easy to find players who already know the d20 system, and it's easier to get a game up and running than it is to learn the ins and outs of a whole new system which is not necessarily any better at all.

Because some people actually don't agree with your assessment that the original system was sufficient. For example, I loathe most dice pool type systems, and find SR's dice pool system particularly bad. (That said I really don't care too much for the setting, so I could care less if you convert it or not...)