Why Convert to d20?

[Psion]

Re: Good points!

Psion - not so sure I agree with hit points emulating real life only in as much as there is no penalty associated with hit point loss.

Where did you get that from? You might want to go back and reread my statement. I never said that HP emulate real life. I said that they emulate heroic genres. Some game designers, when they throw in more realistic rules forget that the genre of their game is more heroic than realistic, and realistic damage systems are a less than satisfactory fit in many cases.

 

[evildmguy]

More good points

Psion - feeling attacked today? Sorry if I contributed to it. And, it was "my bad" for saying that you said that hit points emulate life. You didn't say that; I obviously misquoted or misrepresented you.

My point and perhaps I should have just made it and left it at that, was that hit points do heroic VERY WELL. I love hit points for heroic. (Heck, Buffy RPG has Life Points and its the same thing. It also works well for that system.) They are wonderful.

What I don't like is that it is tough to come up with a 'simple' system using hit points and having some sort of penalty based on damage. It doesn't work but that's hit points for you.

So, my attack wasn't against you. It is that the d20 system doesn't seem to allow anything except heroic style play. That's not bad but that isn't always what *I* want. So, that's my issue with d20.

Ironically, perhaps Buffy RPG and show are a good example of heroic hit points in use. Except on the bad guys, they don't deal with loss of limb or anything except for generic damage, which could be called hit points.

btw, what are the four issues of hit points in your opinion? If it isn't obvious, how does VP/WP address them all? Thanks!

Hollywood: In the end, I think that the average player, even the below average player, will play any system as long as the GM will do most of the work. While I have had a couple of players (this was fifteen years ago!) who wouldn't play anything except DND, much to my chagrin, my past several groups have been very open to playing other systems. I don't know if there is a commonality in it. I just know that there are some systems that I like enough that I would be willing to do that extra work, if it meant being able to use that system.

Good discussion! Thanks!

edg

 

[Psion]

Re: More good points

btw, what are the four issues of hit points in your opinion? If it isn't obvious, how does VP/WP address them all? Thanks!

1) The healing issue
2) The "up or down" issue
3) The "unkillable high level PC" issue
4) The "skills are linked to heroism" issue.

1) Healing issue

This is the single wonkiest thing about the HP system to me. The issue is the commonly repeated tirade of "why can a cure light restore a commoner from near fresh to fully healed, but high level characters need cure critical?" Though I accept this faults and have some conceptual workarounds, I still find it the single most vexing thing about HP.

VP/WP fixes this by separating damage into real and temporary (vitality) damage. Any real telling lethal damage comes off of wounds and is treated the same for all characters regardless of level.

2) Up or down issue

This is similar to what we were talking about earlier. I find it conceptually disconcerting that a character operates at 100% at 1 hp, but is unconcsious at -1.

I have my own house rule for the hp system for this, but VP/WP addresses this by treating the character as fatigued when they take WP damage.

3) Unkillable high level PC Issue

This is the classic "he's pointing a crossbow at me? Big deal" bit.

This is the only foible of HP that MDT addresses. VP/WP adresses this by allowing critical hits to bypass the VP. Any hit is potentially lethal.

4) Skill is linked to heroism issue

In D&D, if you want your character to have 10 ranks in a skill, that character must be 7th level and must have 7 hit dice, regardless of whether the character is a sedentary NPC.

In the VP/WP system (at least as presented in SW), NPC classes simply do not receive VP as they advance levels. VP are reserved for heroes.

 

[Desdichado]

Heck, I want all my games to be d20. You say games shouldn't be converted to d20 just because, I say games shouldn't not use a well-known, easily implemented, pre-existing system with a large user base. Even games that are very well known for their systems, such as BRP Call of Cthulhu, integrated already existing systems to the setting. d20, with some modifications (maybe even substantial, as in the case of d20 Call of Cthulhu or Mutants and Masterminds, which isn't even technically d20) can handle any genre already, and doesn't need to be learned from scratch by all the players. What exactly is to be gained from having a Shadowrun system, a GURPS system, a Storyteller system, a Tribe 8 system, a BESM system, etc. except to find niche markets?

 

[Darke]

@ Psion:

What is your Houserule for the HP system in D&D? Can you explain it please? *either here or in a new thread in the houserule board or via mail*

That would be very helpful !

das Darke

 

[Corinth]

On a related note: you want to convert your game to d20 because otherwise you'll never get that massive multiplayer RPG campaign off the ground, due to the RPGA's insistance upon standardizing upon the most massive user network around- d20.

 

[dpdx]

TCJ says:

I also don't understand the desire for every system to have a d20 conversion.

To which I respond:

As for me, I'm glad there's usually a d20 conversion, because those golem-sized bricks of tiny d6 like they have in Mordheim and Warhammer are not my friend, and the person that brings those to my game will be responsible for gathering them from the floor after my cat swats them under sofas and chairs.

Of course, I've only ever seen two types of dice systems (in print): d6 and d20. So to me, if it isn't d20, it's d6, and I fear and loathe the prospect of not only lots of tiny d6 running about my crib, but also of having to BUY said bricks of d6, little or human sized, and keep them in my possession.

If there's a system that uses a big variety of regular-sized dice, however, I could play it, and would learn it if I was interested in the genre. But the only system I've seen that allows me to use the dice I have, without buying more, is d20.

 

[Voneth]

Well that depends on what you mean by d20.

No system is perfect, though they all have strengths and weaknesses.

My current favorite d20 system has no classes, optional rules to replace BAB with skills for combat as well as "pain penalities" to you rolls after being hit.

It's weakness is that you can't just drop all your d20 stuff in as is, then again that "beneift" of d20 in general is exagerrated, unless you play nothing but standard fantasy all day.

 

[Alzrius]

I think (pretty much) every system should convert to d20 for one basic reason: it helps not to have to always learn a new system to play a new game.

I'm not saying that we should sink to the lowest common denomonator here, but it strikes me as a bit much to have to sit down and learn new RPG systems every time you want to play a different kind of game. It helps to have a single unified system for a wide variety of games, since then, when you learn one, you learn them all.

An offshoot of that is that then, you don't need to keep buying so many core rulebooks. Sure campaign settings must still be published, but you don't have entire books that tell you the mechanics of playing, you already have the PHB that does that. The few books you need to buy to play in another setting now have pages freed up to concentrate on setting-specific material.

And a tiny offshoot of that is my last reason: with everything using one system, you can have in-game crossovers (spaceships land on your D&D world, etc.). Crossovers rock!

 

[Psion]

What is your Houserule for the HP system in D&D? Can you explain it please? *either here or in a new thread in the houserule board or via mail*

I'll touch on it here; if you want more details, though, it should probably go into house rules.

I have 3 basic HP house rules, but the "critical effect" rule is perhaps the most pertinent one here.

Basically, what I tried to do is make a rule that wouldn't require me to rebalance weapon statistics (threat ranges, crit multipliers, etc.), so I didn't try to patch directly into the crit system. Further, I wanted the system to apply to magic as well as weapons.

So what I did is take a spin off of the "clobbered" variant in the DMG. If a character ever takes more than 1/2 their remaining HP in one hit, they must make a fortitude save or suffer a critical effect.

The save is DC 10+ 1/2 damage inflicted.

If the save fails, the character suffers a critical effect, which can include: clobbered, ability damage, bleeding, impairment, stunning, or maiming. I use a chart I can memorize for this, preventing me from having to look things up during the game. The severity of the effect is determined by the unmodified roll of the saving throw. This prevents creatures with high fortitude saves (like dragons) from suffering severe effects (like dismemberment) from small amounts of damage.