D&D 5E Why D&D is not (just) Tolkien

[Hussar]

However the point about equal power levels is a fairly recent addition to the game. Back in the day there was a strong expectation that if you died, you came back at first level.

Plus having a stable of pc’s to draw from with varying levels.

Plus hirelings which would be much lower level and henchmen with somewhat lower levels

Plus many, many ways to lose levels in play.

Plus every class having different do tables meaning that the party would rarely be the same level even without the above.

No you can’t really argue that older dnd was set up so the group would all be equal. Far from it.


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[Lehrbuch]

However the point about equal power levels is a fairly recent addition to the game. Back in the day there was a strong expectation that if you died, you came back at first level...No you can’t really argue that older dnd was set up so the group would all be equal. Far from it.

In practice, in my experience, because of the way that the XP tables work, you either caught up to be within a level or so very quickly, or you got so frustrated with repeatedly dying that you quit and did something else until the DM reset the campaign with all new characters.

Also, I don't think that it is entirely credible to argue (as you seem to be) that a D&D party is "meant" to have a high casualty rate so that from an initially homogeneous party (everyone level 1), the internal power-balance within the party eventually comes to mimic the imbalance between literary characters such as, say, Gandalf and Bilbo Baggins.

 

[Hussar]

Dunno about “meant”. Do know that that’s how it played. And there are reports of play at the time of groups having very high lethality rates.


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[Lehrbuch]

Dunno about “meant”. Do know that that’s how it played. And there are reports of play at the time of groups having very high lethality rates.

Even if you believe that high lethality really creates an adventuring party with an internal power-imbalance composition like the party in The Hobbit, it still seems really unlikely that this was the intention of high lethality. High lethality is more likely a consequence of a design intention (articulated or not) such as "player expertise should matter" (which sounds like a believably war-gamerish intention).

If the intention was simply that "the party should have an internal power imbalance" we would be rolling PC level on a d12 during character generation, or something similar.

 

[Lehrbuch]

Even if you believe that high lethality really creates an adventuring party with an internal power-imbalance composition like the party in The Hobbit, it still seems really unlikely that this was the intention of high lethality.

After all, the literary sources tend to also have quite low lethality, so I don't think you can argue high lethality is part of imitating literature models. The subtitle of The Hobbit is "There and Back Again", not "How Numerous Dwarves Came To A Bloody End".

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=6811402]Lehrbuch[/MENTION] - I think the best "literary" model for D&D parties is the superhero team.

 

[Lehrbuch]

[MENTION=6811402]Lehrbuch[/MENTION] - I think the best "literary" model for D&D parties is the superhero team.

Perhaps. But, that is neither fantasy literature nor Tolkien specifically.

 

[pemerton]

Perhaps. But, that is neither fantasy literature nor Tolkien specifically.

Not JRRT. Arguably a type of fantasy.

 

[Hussar]

Something that came up earlier but I think wasn’t explored is the way settings, particularly TSR/WotC settings look. Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are far closer to Middle Earth than Hyboria. Non-human nations living side by side with humans is something you don’t see in fantasy before Tolkien.

Never minding that the Five Shires appears in Mystara.


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[Parmandur]

Something that came up earlier but I think wasn’t explored is the way settings, particularly TSR/WotC settings look. Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are far closer to Middle Earth than Hyboria. Non-human nations living side by side with humans is something you don’t see in fantasy before Tolkien.

Never minding that the Five Shires appears in Mystara.


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Actually, Greyhawk has a Hyborian feel to it, with Age of Chivalry bits thrown on top along with Dwarves and Elves: Greyhawk itself is straight up Lankhmar, for that matter. Greenwood was certainly more Tolkienian in his influence on Forgotten Realms, more broad all-around really.