Ok, I need to clear something up...
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Similar here.
Every one may re-check that my two 1st characters in living 3.5 / Pathfinder games were a healbot/group-buffer cleric and a monk.
I like shapeshifting of all kind, so I also like druids.
I dislike choosing spells each day, so I prefer spellcasters with a 'known spell' list (I still wait for this option for druids in Pathfinder).
So I don't need tier 1 or optimized classes or choose my class with these things in mind.
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Bonus AC for monk levels make up for loss of shield. They can wear bracers of armor and max out dex. If they're made viable as fighters, they don't need as much armor class.
Why can hey max out dex? They also need Str, some Con and currently Wis. Also, everyone
may wear bracers of armor. But the other classes don't
need to.
Great 4th member. Trapfinding isn't needed the majority of the time. We often forego rogues since no one likes to play them. Players enjoy the monk.
So, are they replacing rogues (skills) or are viable fighters (combat)?
BTW, I know many people preferring rogues over monks (but I prefer monks, too).
How does the paladin in your campaign have a much better AC? You building your monk wrong? Or are you under-valuing touch AC?
Shield, heavy armor, small Dex bonus, neck slot free for amulet of natural armor, not being the class' 'weapon slot'.
The value of touch AC varies much by campaign. Most creatures (AFAIK) attack non-touch AC.
And now you want yet another class's abilities. So because the paladin, a warrior built for defense, has equal saves to a monk that somehow makes the great saves the monk gets not as valuable? You're losing me because monk and paladin are the two big save classes.
I was just saying that the monks saves have their equal. With full Bab, more HP and half-spellcasting.
Paladin doesn't have the movement or the evasion abilities to make the high save as effective. Or all the other nifty little abilities.
They have other nifty abilities. Evasion is obtainable as an item and their higher HP makes damage half effects form Fortitude and Will attacks (few they might be) less severe.
The MAD is the only thing I see making them weak. They have great survivability and do fairly good damage once they have a solid magic item tree.
I don't like classes needing an even more specific item tree than the other classes. Unarmed and natural armor bonus are also on the same slot.
2d10 damage with 7 to 9 attacks is nothing to scoff at. My friend usually takes +3 or 4 amulet of mighty fists and an enhancement of some kind such as holy or energy. Ups his damage substantially.
2d10 is an average of 9. What is his Str bonus? And 7-9 attacks only if he doesn't move more than 5ft.
+4 and 1 energy or +3 and holy is the highest level item he can ever get. Weapons can get much higher (and don't block the neck slot).
He picks his targets well. He positions well to get him bonuses to hit.
Every character and class should. This isn't monk specific.
And if you want a monk that can move, the new Dimensional Agility feat chain answered your wish. So Paizo gave you a nice bone to take advantage of monk movement.
I have not seen them in play yet.
But the first one cannot not be taken before level 12 as a single class monk. And I don't see an ability to use flurry of blows with it (I maybe missing it, using currently only the SRD.
I have on player that plays a monk every single campaign in both 3E and Pathfinder. He's trying a ninja this time because he wants to see how it works. But in every other campaign he plays a monk. He loves monks. He loves their versatility. He loves their movement. He loves not having any weak saves. He loves their damage output when he uses a key point and gets a large number of attacks. He loves that all his attacks use full Power Attack, so when he gets buffed with bless and prayer he's smashing for good damage. He loves having maxed out Perception, Sense Motive, and being able to Stealth.
An I know players who love to play rogues. And I like to play monks, too. May I not suggest improvements to things I like?
I'm wondering why my player finds way to take advantate of the varied abilities of the monk to make the character a very powerful contributing party member, but your groups can't seem to find ways to take advantage of the monk.
Never said that. But I have seen many ineffective monks in action.
Monks fast movement makes them awsome scouts.
Why? Because he can run away quickly? (serious question)
Monks great saves often have them resist aura attacks, spells, area of effect attacks, and the like. Monks high touch AC makes them poor targets for many dangerous abilities like enervate and the like.
Yes, monks have good defenses vs AoE and Touch target enemies (mostly some casters, who have also other spells on their list, but not necessarily ready).
Monks Abundant Step allows them to escape from behind walls, out of pits, from trapped rooms, away from enemies that try to trap them, and the like. I've seen so much clever play from monk players that other classes can't do that I never understand threads like this.
At level 12, most of my players don't need a monk to do this. And spellcasters can do it much earlier and can take others with them.
I really can't help but think no one plays monks in your guy's campaigns, so you've never really seen high level monks in action. Whereas I see them in action almost every campaign. They are always a huge pain in my behind as a fourth character. Far moreso than any rogue could ever hope to be.
I really can't help but think no one plays rogues in your guy's campaigns, so you've never really seen high level rogues in action. Whereas I see them in action almost every campaign. They are always a huge pain in my behind as a fourth character. Far moreso than any monk could ever hope to be.
And this is also true.
And the only thing we don't do that other groups do is use 15 point point buy. So MAD isn't a factor. When you're not dealing with MAD, monks are very fun and potent to play.
Yes, MAD is less a problem with higher point buy.
But if you roll, it can prevent you from playing the class effectively.
