D&D General Why do people like Alignment?

[Maxperson]

Which reminds me of an interesting debate I had with my DM about a forced alignment change on my Cleric wearing a Phylactery of Faithfulness, lol, a magic item that's sole function is to warn you that your actions are putting your alignment at risk!

What was there to debate? Sounds like he messed up.

 

[James Gasik]

The third situation, though, I absolutely would have handled differently. I would not have kept silent about the sneak attack against prone targets. If I were going to allow it, I'd correct the players on the rule, but then say that it makes sense to me for it to work on prone targets, so from now on it does. That way the players aren't ever going to be in a situation where 12 games later they realize they made a mistake and feel like either they need to continue to put one past me, or feel like they've been doing something wrong and come forward with their "mistake." That's not a ding against you, but simply saying how and why I would do it.

I am planning to address it, the next time we're all at the table. I didn't want to interrupt the flow of the game with a "actually that's wrong, but I'm ok with it" moment. I don't know why, but when stuff like that happens, a player gets a rule wrong or thinks they can do something they can't, when I point it out but immediately say "I don't care, it's fine", they typically want to argue with me about it for some reason (insert confused Jackie Chan face here), so I decided to have that discussion at a time when it wouldn't disrupt the game.

 

[Lanefan]

Seems to me the GM should take this as a moment to reflect, if they articulate a premise and genuinely no one actually adheres to it.

Sure. A GM without players isn't going to have much of a game.

But if the players collectively ask (or worse, demand) that the GM run something she flat-out doesn't want to run then IMO she's well within her rights to decline, which I think was the point being made in the post to which you were replying.

 

[Lanefan]

Okay then. You assert the GM deserves more influence, more deference from the others, deserves to have their interests put before everyone else's because without them, the game can't happen. Try this on for size.

Typical group, five players, one GM. GM meets whatever standards you wish to set for "providing the entire campaign".

But Player A is the one providing the meeting location. Group has already tried other locations when this player couldn't host--never works. Libraries need them to be too quiet and don't let them have snacks. There is no FLGS within driving distance of all players, nor any community center with the kind of space they need--rooms are either too small or MUCH too large, and again often forbid food. This player is centrally located, convenient for everyone to reach, generous with snacks, etc.

By your own logic, surely this player now merits just as much influence as the GM. After all, without them and their investment in the game, there can be no game. They are literally exactly as necessary to the game as the GM is--just as there can be no campaign without the GM, this group can have no campaign without a place to play it.

Do you agree or disagree? If disagree, why?

In my experience the DM also hosts, almost without exception other than one-offs.

 

[James Gasik]

What was there to debate? Sounds like he messed up.

It had to do with the Balance card from the Deck of Many Things. I knew the card existed from previous encounters (he was one of those DM's who loved using the Deck, no matter how many times it blew up in his face, and got irritated when players got "too powerful" as a result). So since I'd picked up the item in an adventure he ran, I decided to consult it before drawing any card, and when I actually drew Balance, he refused to allow any "take backs".

In his opinion, the Phylactery is supposed to warn the wearer about actions that would cause their alignment to shift normally, like a veritable angel on your shoulder saying "oh, but if you murderhobo those goblins, you'll turn evil!", not "I put on a cursed helmet and I'm evil now". He started saying that even if it did work the way I thought it did, it was obviously too powerful, since it could apparently predict the result of any action I took with 100% accuracy, and all divination effects in the game are balanced by having failure chances or countermeasures.

Then he shifted to how long a "moment" is, saying that if I wanted to use the item it would take up my actions so anything I did would take twice as long, since obviously I need to constantly consult the item as "the future is always changing". Then he finally said "well, all of your previous draws are negated, since there was always a possibility of drawing Balance, and the Phylactery would have told you not to draw any cards".

I mean, he was the DM, so I had to abide by his rulings. I can't imagine what he would have said if I'd decided to memorize a stack of Augury spells before drawing from the Deck! I stopped using the Phylactery since apparently it didn't do anything common sense wouldn't do.

 

[James Gasik]

In my experience the DM also hosts, almost without exception other than one-offs.

I don't. I live in a cramped apartment that has no room for a group of gamers, so I have to game elsewhere.

 

[Lanefan]

Maybe they should want different things, rather than trying to force everyone else to play only the things that please them?

If someone wants something that far different from what I'm already running then they can DM it. If I'm invited to play, I'll then accept or decline.

Maybe they should consider collaborating, rather than pronouncing from on high?

Maybe they should try starting from a point of "what would other people like doing" and then find something they can find joy in, rather than projecting their own thoughts onto everyone else and being surprised when somehow that isn't actually how life works?

Hypothetical: a player insists on Eberron as the setting but the DM has no use for the primary elements that make Eberron what it is and instead has put effort into modifying Greyhawk into a quasi-homebrew.

Now what?

 

[James Gasik]

If someone wants something that far different from what I'm already running then they can DM it. If I'm invited to play, I'll then accept or decline.

Hypothetical: a player insists on Eberron as the setting but the DM has no use for the primary elements that make Eberron what it is and instead has put effort into modifying Greyhawk into a quasi-homebrew.

Now what?

I guess I'd try to find out what about Eberron they really like that Greyhawk can't produce. Which should be interesting, because Greyhawk is basically kitchen sink fantasy at it's finest- you got everything from scimitars that fly around like the Glaive from Krull, giant robots (The Mighty Servant of Leuk-o), magical atom bombs (The Invoked Devastation, The Rain of Colorless Fire), Alice in Wonderland themed adventures, a crashed alien spaceship full of androids, mutants, powered armor, and blaster weapons, and that's just the tip of the iceberg! If he wants elemental-powered technology, I can dust off the old "Moving Day" adventure from Dungeon magazine. If he wants to play a warforged, well, sure, why not have a rogue android from Expedition to the Barrier Peaks roaming around?

Now if, on the other hand, I'm a DM who hates all that weird stuff about Greyhawk and prefers "traditional" lower-magic D&D, I guess then we'd have a problem, but as written, Greyhawk should have something for everyone (except for gunpowder, I guess).

 

[Lanefan]

It had to do with the Balance card from the Deck of Many Things. I knew the card existed from previous encounters (he was one of those DM's who loved using the Deck, no matter how many times it blew up in his face, and got irritated when players got "too powerful" as a result). So since I'd picked up the item in an adventure he ran, I decided to consult it before drawing any card, and when I actually drew Balance, he refused to allow any "take backs".

In his opinion, the Phylactery is supposed to warn the wearer about actions that would cause their alignment to shift normally, like a veritable angel on your shoulder saying "oh, but if you murderhobo those goblins, you'll turn evil!", not "I put on a cursed helmet and I'm evil now". He started saying that even if it did work the way I thought it did, it was obviously too powerful, since it could apparently predict the result of any action I took with 100% accuracy, and all divination effects in the game are balanced by having failure chances or countermeasures.

Then he shifted to how long a "moment" is, saying that if I wanted to use the item it would take up my actions so anything I did would take twice as long, since obviously I need to constantly consult the item as "the future is always changing". Then he finally said "well, all of your previous draws are negated, since there was always a possibility of drawing Balance, and the Phylactery would have told you not to draw any cards".

I mean, he was the DM, so I had to abide by his rulings. I can't imagine what he would have said if I'd decided to memorize a stack of Augury spells before drawing from the Deck! I stopped using the Phylactery since apparently it didn't do anything common sense wouldn't do.

The Deck would trump the Phylactery were I ruling on it.

The Phylactery can warn you of unfavourable alignment effects of intended deliberate (and maaaaaybe even unintended or accidental) actions on your part but can't warn you about something random: it has no way of knowing whether you'll draw Balance as opposed to any other card.

Add to that the magic of the Deck itself that prevents divinations from telling you what you'll draw and yeah, the Phylactery loses this battle every time.

 

[Lanefan]

I guess I'd try to find out what about Eberron they really like that Greyhawk can't produce. Which should be interesting, because Greyhawk is basically kitchen sink fantasy at it's finest- you got everything from scimitars that fly around like the Glaive from Krull, giant robots (The Mighty Servant of Leuk-o), magical atom bombs (The Invoked Devastation, The Rain of Colorless Fire), Alice in Wonderland themed adventures, a crashed alien spaceship full of androids, mutants, powered armor, and blaster weapons, and that's just the tip of the iceberg! If he wants elemental-powered technology, I can dust off the old "Moving Day" adventure from Dungeon magazine. If he wants to play a warforged, well, sure, why not have a rogue android from Expedition to the Barrier Peaks roaming around?

Now if, on the other hand, I'm a DM who hates all that weird stuff about Greyhawk and prefers "traditional" lower-magic D&D, I guess then we'd have a problem, but as written, Greyhawk should have something for everyone (except for gunpowder, I guess).

Perhaps Greyhawk wasn't the best example, then. My exposure to it has always been as a lower-magic somewhat gritty setting, as opposed to FR which is the higher-magic less-gritty one, which is why I put it as a contrast to magic-everywhere Eberron.