Why Do You Hate An RPG System?

[overgeeked]

MERP was a simpler version of Rolemaster. I've had similar happen to me with Rolemaster - spent an entire session creating characters, and next session everyone dies. This did not make me hate Rolemaster (nor MERP), just that these games should not be played as if the characters are high-level D&D characters.

Yeah, Orcs are pretty tough in MERP, a lot more than in D&D; later, I converted our MERP game to AD&D. I had similar thing happen in Morrow Project, we all made our characters, and then got in a radiation area, and just died.

I think that's mostly a misalignment of expectations. Like D&D players jumping into Call of Cthulhu. It's going to end badly without the Keeper making it clear that CoC is not D&D.

One of the things I hate about games is when combat is incredibly lethal and it takes a long time to make a character. It generally bugs me when character creation takes a long time generally, anything more than 5-10 minutes max is too much. Combat being cartoonishly non-lethal unless it's superheroes or Toon really bugs me as well. If people are trying to kill each other, it should be fairly easy to do. Knives, spears, swords, guns, fire, mass drivers...all really, really deadly.

 

[dragoner]

I think that's mostly a misalignment of expectations. Like D&D players jumping into Call of Cthulhu. It's going to end badly without the Keeper making it clear that CoC is not D&D.

One of the things I hate about games is when combat is incredibly lethal and it takes a long time to make a character. It generally bugs me when character creation takes a long time generally, anything more than 5-10 minutes max is too much. Combat being cartoonishly non-lethal unless it's superheroes or Toon really bugs me as well. If people are trying to kill each other, it should be fairly easy to do. Knives, spears, swords, guns, fire, mass drivers...all really, really deadly.

Yes, I agree, though it is also up to the GM to curate the game and just not let the players stumble blindly into a TPK. I have seen it happen more than once, and imo, it is a waste of time if it happens too early. Most BRP games such as CoC or M-Space, which I like, have fairly long character creation, and deadly combat, so it's important that players know when to run away and not think to battle it out, GM's always don't communicate that enough. Plus characters would probably have some sort of idea of things to avoid, maybe not perfect knowledge, though.

 

[overgeeked]

Yes, I agree, though it is also up to the GM to curate the game and just not let the players stumble blindly into a TPK. I have seen it happen more than once, and imo, it is a waste of time if it happens too early. Most BRP games such as CoC or M-Space, which I like, have fairly long character creation, and deadly combat, so it's important that players know when to run away and not think to battle it out, GM's always don't communicate that enough. Plus characters would probably have some sort of idea of things to avoid, maybe not perfect knowledge, though.

If you mean the Referee should explain that combat is deadly, that running is a viable option, but still let the players and PCs face the consequences of their actions, then I agree. If you mean the Referee should protect the players and PCs from themselves, i.e. remove consequences and therefore agency, then hard disagree.

 

[dragoner]

If you mean the Referee should explain that combat is deadly, that running is a viable option, but still let the players and PCs face the consequences of their actions, then I agree. If you mean the Referee should protect the players and PCs from themselves, i.e. remove consequences and therefore agency, then hard disagree.

I mean not sending people in enemies that are overwhelmingly powerful, it is important to give the players a fighting chance. This sort of bleeds into the random TPK right out the gate, is being to tied to random encounters, or rolls. It was a sort of old school play fostered by the DMG, which in its own way wasn't that bad, as long as one accepted it made no real sense at all: wandering through the endless random dungeon, fighting monsters from the random room tables.

 

[overgeeked]

I mean not sending people in enemies that are overwhelmingly powerful, it is important to give the players a fighting chance. This sort of bleeds into the random TPK right out the gate, is being to tied to random encounters, or rolls. It was a sort of old school play fostered by the DMG, which in its own way wasn't that bad, as long as one accepted it made no real sense at all: wandering through the endless random dungeon, fighting monsters from the random room tables.

Huh. The way I run things is: the world exists independently of the PCs. If there’s an adult dragon’s lair nearby and the party insists on venturing in at 1st level without any precautions or even a plan...they’re dead. It’s not my job to save them from their choices or the dangers of the world. It’s not my job to “child proof” the setting, for lack of a better phrase. “Level proof” perhaps or “idiot proof”. I don’t change the CR of monsters to make things “fair”. An adult dragon is still an adult dragon no matter the PCs’ level. That village of 100 orcs still has 100 orcs no matter how rested the PCs are. I generally telegraph what’s ahead and how deadly it is...I have zero interest in gotchas...but if the players insist on pushing on...any consequences are 100% on them.

Wandering monsters also came with reaction tables, so there’s no guarantee an encounter will be a fight. Back then it was also XP for gold, low or no XP for monster killing. So the game was about smartly navigating the environment and avoiding fights if at all possible. Negotiating. Playing smart. Dealing with the risk vs reward of food, light, noise, treasure carried, and how far you have to get back out again. That was infinitely more fun than the modern kick in the door, and hey, look, another perfectly balanced encounter we’re assumed to fight and we’re practically guaranteed to win...lather rinse repeat. Snore.

 

[Thomas Shey]

This was one of my biggest annoyances with D&D 3rd edition. Prestige classes seemed like a great concept to me when they were introduced. But for many prestige classes, I had to essentially map my characters progression from level 1 in order to qualify for the class later leaving no room for spontaneity and being able to perhaps move into a prestige class based on what happened during the game. Sorry, but you didn't take the Endurance Feat when you could have so you can't go into this class.

There's a reason more modern games that do anything even vaguely like that (prereqs with other prereqs, say) like PF2e or Fragged Empire also have retrofitting rules in them, too.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think that's mostly a misalignment of expectations. Like D&D players jumping into Call of Cthulhu. It's going to end badly without the Keeper making it clear that CoC is not D&D.

We saw this with a D&D player joining a Runequest game some years ago. His experience was--not good. Not helped by him not listening to other people.

 

[dragoner]

The way I run things is: the world exists independently of the PCs. If there’s an adult dragon’s lair nearby and the party insists on venturing in at 1st level without any precautions or even a plan...they’re dead.

Then it is game over, right? One and done. That was the way it was with the Morrow Project game.

 

[overgeeked]

Then it is game over, right? One and done. That was the way it was with the Morrow Project game.

Like one shots? Sometimes. Or the players make new characters and keep playing.

 

[dragoner]

Like one shots? Sometimes. Or the players make new characters and keep playing.

One shots maybe, though I can't remember a time of players making new characters and playing after a tpk, usually that's the game. If it happens right out the gate, I would sign off there too I think.