Why do you use LA in your campaign?

[pawsplay]

There are items like quills of scribing and dedicated wrights to do crafting for you. Combine that with planar time traits (the majority of your wealth will be accumulated after you can do planar travel), and it becomes much less difficult to do item crafting. I guess technically you have the same wealth, but it's invested into raw materials instead of just buying the magic items, which gives you more bang for your buck. And getting your caster level back is just an orange ioun stone away.

I don't exactly understand what you mean by "If you're behind, you're always behind". In terms of level, you are guaranteed to catch up because of how XP works. In terms of XP you have available for crafting, you're ahead.

You are guaranteed to catch up only if:

1) you play a campaign of an indefinite length, such that you actually do catch up, and
2) you define "catching up" as being the same level, most of the time

You will never actually catch up in XP total once you've lost a level, unless you overshoot by a very modest amount as you come around the level (and your friends have only just leveled). So, if you were the highest XP party member, then died at precisely the right time, then leveled after a very high XP session, you might precisely catch up.

Otherwise, it is impossible to ever truly catch up.

 

[Particle_Man]

My DM dislike the idea of LA and so do I. Some races are just better than other. I don't think a vampire PC or a drow should be punished with LA just because of the fact that they're more superior than other races.

Maybe it helps to think of it this way.

In D&D there is this conceit that PCs will be in groups of PCs of about the same level. Thus 1st level newbies will cluster together and go fight kobolds, and 10th level heroes will cluster together and go fight mind-flayers and 20th level heroes will cluster together and go fight Pit Fiends.

What you don't get is a random clustering of a 1st level dude, a 10th level dude and a 20th level dude. It is as if the PC characters can recognize when someone is either too powerful or too weak to hang with. You might call this 'PC Radar'.

Now Vampires are pretty powerful. If you get a Vampire PC who is 5th level, he will be tougher than a 5th level human. Thus using that same "Radar" he will consider 5th level humans too puny to hang with, and will seek out 13th level humans to hang with. This is exactly the same "Radar" that causes the 13th level elf to consider a 5th level human too puny to hang with, so he will seek a 13th level human to hang with. Similarly, a 5th level human would recognize a 5th level vampire and a 13th level high elf as "too powerful" to hang with, and would seek out 5th level high elves and 5th level humans.

LA is not a function of power reduction of a race. Vampires are tougher than humans, on average. All LA changes is the "radar" that the PCs have, that mysteriously determines who will band together as a PC adventuring party.

Your vampire PC is *not* weakened by LA. He is simply recognizing that his vampiric powers allow him to "punch above his weight" and "hang with a tougher crowd" than before he became a vampire.

 

[Rystil Arden]

You are guaranteed to catch up only if:

1) you play a campaign of an indefinite length, such that you actually do catch up, and
2) you define "catching up" as being the same level, most of the time

You will never actually catch up in XP total once you've lost a level, unless you overshoot by a very modest amount as you come around the level (and your friends have only just leveled). So, if you were the highest XP party member, then died at precisely the right time, then leveled after a very high XP session, you might precisely catch up.

Otherwise, it is impossible to ever truly catch up.

Technically, the largest possible edge case takes you from being a level behind barely (due to tiny XP amounts) to being 5629 XP ahead due to 3.5 XP assignment. It happens when you are level 18 (very nearly 19) and the rest of the group is level 19 (barely) and is actually pretty likely for a similar effect to occur if you fight anything even vaguely resembling a tough encounter as your next encounter.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

LA is not a function of power reduction of a race. Vampires are tougher than humans, on average. All LA changes is the "radar" that the PCs have, that mysteriously determines who will band together as a PC adventuring party....Your vampire PC is *not* weakened by LA. He is simply recognizing that his vampiric powers allow him to "punch above his weight" and "hang with a tougher crowd" than before he became a vampire.

Actually he doesn't, LA puts a character behind in the three most crucial assets HP, BAB, and Saves, and the abilities do not make up for it. It results in characters who have a few unique and powerful abilities but are actually too weak to face CR appropriate challenges. They don't have enough hit points to stand and fight, they have trouble hitting the enemies the rest of the group does and they're far more likely to fail saves at the recommended level of play.

 

[Particle_Man]

Actually he doesn't, LA puts a character behind in the three most crucial assets HP, BAB, and Saves, and the abilities do not make up for it. It results in characters who have a few unique and powerful abilities but are actually too weak to face CR appropriate challenges. They don't have enough hit points to stand and fight, they have trouble hitting the enemies the rest of the group does and they're far more likely to fail saves at the recommended level of play.

Wotc disagrees with you, but in any case, now we are only negotiating the price, as the old joke goes. If you think that vampires are stronger than humans of the same level, then you would accept *some* level of LA to balance that out, right? You might think that +8 is too high, but otherwise it is a matter of a trade-off.

For what it is worth, I have heard that some DMs simply subtract one from the given LAs to get a result that feels right to them.

Think of it this way: A party of 1st level humans might find it interesting to investigate that band of kobolds that has been terrorizing Farmer Bill. A party of 1st level vampires would be bored silly playing that adventure.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Wotc disagrees with you, but in any case, now we are only negotiating the price, as the old joke goes. If you think that vampires are stronger than humans of the same level, then you would accept *some* level of LA to balance that out, right? You might think that +8 is too high, but otherwise it is a matter of a trade-off.

No we aren't negotiating the price because you're assuming that LA is the only way to handle races with differing levels of strength.

I do not use LA at all, I handle the situation and maintain parity by using racial classes as in AU and AE. Mine are specifically balanced against the PC Classes using Upper Krust's CR system to construct them so that at each level they can have an appropriate racial hit dice, BAB and Saves that keep them on par with other PCs of their level. This eliminates the usual problem of LA 2+ races being glass-jawed.

 

[Psion]

LA prevents monster races from being free power.

The problem is that the costs are somewhat wonky. In many cases, creatures will have a large level adjustment for their stats and special abilities added to their HD. Other monsters (generally weaker ones) will have several stats and advantages (large size, for instance), a tiny level adjustment, and then rely on the monstrous HD to even things out. Some LA races are bargins, and others really suck. Granted, that's true of spells, feats, PrCs, etc. But LA races seem to tend toward more extremes.

Especially since the value of an LA race varies wildly with levels. A half dragon at level 1 (ecl 4) is hard hitting, but fragile despite his natural armor since he only has 1 HD. But at higher levels, the extra Con and natural armor easily make up for a few missing HD (except for pure HD effects like Blasphemy), and the character retains a significant offensive advantage.

Yep... that about sums it up.

As for me... I was using a minotaur race until I got the WoW RPG book... it uses the racial paragon mechanic from Arcana Evolved to represent powerful races. I immediately swapped in the tauren for my minotaur race, as it proves a much less shaky basis for monstrous races.

 

[Satori]

Moogle: You misread my post, or simply focused on an online attempt at humor. Had you not strawmanned me into the "Your type of fun is bad!" group, and actually read the rest of my post, you'd realize that we both agree on the same thing. LA for unusual PC races is in place to create a statistical "Preference" for the races that the designers (and most gamers in general) consider to be ideal. The designers (and most gamers in general) envision DnD as a game involving human-ish heroes fighting against non-human-ish critters. LA establishes a firm "ease of use" in defaulting to core races.

I've DM'd games for 12 year olds, and I've personally ok'd "Half Vampire/Half Werewolf" characters for these players. Heck, I even gave a kid a "Returning Frisbee of Death" because he wanted one. They had a lot of fun, and it wasn't "ZOMG BADWRONGFUNEXPLODE".

Now, for that game I removed LA because I was dealing with a group of young kids who enjoyed anime-esque concepts. Therefore, their level 6 characters were probably on par with EL 12 critters. Because they all had HUGE LA races, it didn't make a difference.

However, would it be fair to let these kids use their characters with a different group involving more "traditional" players? Of course not. Not only would the Half Demons and Werewolf PCs dominate the Core races of the other players, but conceptual the combination is simply far too silly to create a cohesive and immersive experience.

Does this make sense? Or is it still "YOU ENJOY BADWRONGFUNPANCAKES!"

Ehren: I mentioned above that DnD (and most gamers in general) typically feel that a "Human-ish" group of adventuers fighting "non-human-ish" critters feels more appropriate than the inverse. Currently, all the "Human-ish" races are relatively even in power level...which means that a players choice between Dwarf, Elf, or Human is largely dependent on their concept, specific build/role, and personal preference rather than a severe deficit in mechanical balance.

Making unique, outlandish races playable on the same level as the "traditional" races tends to create a paradigm shift in conceptual perspective.

i.e. After some revising, a Lizardfolk is made equally powerful to a human or elf. Suddenly, players start looking at Lizardfolk like a standard, non-unique option because there is no "preference" mechanically NOT to play them. Therefore, the world of "Human-ish" adventurers immediately finds an influx of "Human-ish characters AND lizardfolk" adventurers.

Some games have no problem with this. Some settings, like Eberron, actively encourage unique-yet-plentiful races like Warforged, Shifters, and Changelings. However, generic 3.5 DnD is arguably designed for more "traditional" games and settings...and within these settings, non-core races don't need the coverage core races get.

 

[Particle_Man]

No we aren't negotiating the price because you're assuming that LA is the only way to handle races with differing levels of strength.

I do not use LA at all, I handle the situation and maintain parity by using racial classes as in AU and AE.

You can do that, but from Wotc's pov, I bet it takes less work to write one line for each monster type giving an LA adjustment, than to write out a full 20 (or up to what LA would be) level racial class for every monster type. Your solution may work well, but it takes work to do it. And if someone wants to play a new monster that hasn't been covered yet, then some DM has to write out a whole new racial class list...or just use the quick-and-dirty LA adjustment.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I, too, use the AU/AE racial level system in my D&D campaigns- I like that it allows people to play the race they want from 1st level on. However, I do use LA as a basis for designing my racial levels.

Other DMs I've played with don't let you use LA adjusted races, or handle it sort of like a 2Ed Barbarian- you choose your LA adjusted race and class and play your PC, but you don't gain another level until you have gained XP up to your ECL. They do, however, put a ceiling on what max LA races you can choose- never above +4LA, IME.

Much like the OP said some races (or classes or whatever) are just better than others. I'm no slave to balance- I've played too many RPGs that were well done and had little concern with "balance" to remain one.

Heck, even within a "balanced" game, someone with a great deal of insight to the ins and outs of the system can make a "game-busting PC" that a less astute player couldn't even dream up.