Why does STR affect Attack Bonus?

[ARandomGod]

Strength = control = MUCH greater accuracy. Control is EVERYTHING when wielding a weapon.

I'm going to agree that strength is the key. I'm simply going to change what it's a key to. It's a key to allowing you to use greater dex in your attacks. If you don't have the strength to control the weapon, you can't apply your dex. If, on the other hand, you DO have that strength, the dex becomes a factor.

Of course, as you practice, both your strength and your dex will improve.

For an interesting example, let's look again at Lord Pendragon's Kendo statement.

He's been practicing it for two years, and he's saying that strength is *the* key.

Now, I ask you Pendragon... imagine yourself up against a significantly stronger opponent who, while stronger, didn't have the training you do, didn't have the two years of practice applying the dexterity to the strength he's built. So as to remove this from the realm of "But I've had fighting training, so that's comparing a fighter to a commoner", let's also assume that this person has had 'combat' training, but in a different style, say boxing.

Now, give you both swords. He's stronger, do you think he'll win?

^_^

Granted, I take your point that strength is indeed "the" key factor. But then again, for DnD comparisions to real world issue... I'll have to say that we don't get more HP's as we level, and the average person has got maybe 6 HP's max. That +4 to damage is going to make a huge difference.

Edit: Especially if you use two hands for +6....

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I'm going to agree that strength is the key. I'm simply going to change what it's a key to. It's a key to allowing you to use greater dex in your attacks. If you don't have the strength to control the weapon, you can't apply your dex. If, on the other hand, you DO have that strength, the dex becomes a factor.

Of course, as you practice, both your strength and your dex will improve.

For an interesting example, let's look again at Lord Pendragon's Kendo statement.

He's been practicing it for two years, and he's saying that strength is *the* key.

Now, I ask you Pendragon... imagine yourself up against a significantly stronger opponent who, while stronger, didn't have the training you do, didn't have the two years of practice applying the dexterity to the strength he's built. So as to remove this from the realm of "But I've had fighting training, so that's comparing a fighter to a commoner", let's also assume that this person has had 'combat' training, but in a different style, say boxing.

Now, give you both swords. He's stronger, do you think he'll win?

^_^

I'm not Pendragon, but I'll give this one a shot.

The guy with the swords, probably. Give 'em both boxing gloves, though, and the boxer will win. Your taking one guy out of his element completely with that scenario. For the scenario towork, you need two guys with equal training in the weapons they are using.

 

[Storyteller01]

I'm not Pendragon, but I'll give this one a shot.

The guy with the swords, probably. Give 'em both boxing gloves, though, and the boxer will win. Your taking one guy out of his element completely with that scenario. For the scenario towork, you need two guys with equal training in the weapons they are using.

Dunno, put even money on the swordsman. He know what points to hit and where. He's also used to using feet and the field. Boxers and comp fighters tend to loose outside the ring (even Mike Tyson broke his wrist in a fight outside the ring. He won, but not without consequences). Then again, most swordsman also had heand to hand training...

 

[ARandomGod]

I'm not Pendragon, but I'll give this one a shot.

The guy with the swords, probably. Give 'em both boxing gloves, though, and the boxer will win. Your taking one guy out of his element completely with that scenario. For the scenario towork, you need two guys with equal training in the weapons they are using.

Of course you'd need equal training... but give them that, and you can't really compare the dex/strength thing. Because the very training itself is designed to increase dex and strength. Training your muscles to react IS dex training.

We could postulate someone who's been taught theory and only done wieght training vs someone who's had actual training with sword in hand. But that's almost preposterous.

 

[Particle_Man]

Let's go pre-training to Schoolyard kids. In one corner we have the BIG kid. Gosh he's strong. In the other corner we have the FAST kid. Usually the latter can outrun the former, but he got tricked into a corner somehow (or his pride won't let him back down in front of everybody).

My money is on the BIG kid. He will hit more, and do more damage. The fast kid won't penetrate the BIG kid's leather jacket with his puny fists. the FAST kid is going to get the snot beat out of him.

In schoolyards across North America, the BIG kids beat up the littler kids, no matter how fast they were.

So if adults can change this somehow, it must be due to training.

Hulk SMASH!

 

[Arkhandus]

What is the rationale behind having your melee Attack Bonus modified by strength? Your attack bonus affects your ability to hit your opponent. Wouldn't dexterity be more appropriate for both melee and missile? It seems appropriate that strength modifies damage, but not your chance to hit. Did they just decide that dexterity was too powerful already?

Because the stronger you are, the more quickly you swing a weapon or a punch or whatnot. With more muscles activating to move the arm, the reaction is swifter and your arm snaps forward on the attack more quickly. Otherwise, people wouldn't have to train to improve their leg strength for running, because the more muscle mass you utilize from your legs, the faster they move. Dexterity is primarily how agile and coordinated you are, not necessarily how fast you move.

Strength also helps you penetrate armor or other solid defenses, and since armor affects AC, Strength helps beat that armor AC by adding to the attack roll. When you hit an armored guy, he's going to be moving slower than if he were unarmored, so instead of your speedy hit making a difference, the power of your hit matters more in that case, and thus has the same effect on your attack roll.

 

[ARandomGod]

Let's go pre-training to Schoolyard kids. In one corner we have the BIG kid. Gosh he's strong. In the other corner we have the FAST kid. Usually the latter can outrun the former, but he got tricked into a corner somehow (or his pride won't let him back down in front of everybody).

My money is on the BIG kid. He will hit more, and do more damage. The fast kid won't penetrate the BIG kid's leather jacket with his puny fists. the FAST kid is going to get the snot beat out of him.

In schoolyards across North America, the BIG kids beat up the littler kids, no matter how fast they were.

So if adults can change this somehow, it must be due to training.

Hulk SMASH!

I think this is generally because the big kid was older than the littler kid.
Now, I'm about six foot tall. I grew tall fast, I was this tall just before I hit 11 years old. I WAS the big kid. And I really couldn't take out the smaller kid. I didn't have the dex... I hadn't learned to use this big, bulky, oversized body.

Flash forward a few more years, and I was the dexterous kid. Everybody else was reaching my size, but I'd been there longer. That's the point where I was much better than other people my age.

ALthough, in general, being that big made people not try.

Because, whether it's true or not, everyone knows not to mess with the big kid.

 

[silentspace]

I'm a small guy, but pretty strong for my size. I guess I'm naturally pretty athletic, and most people assume that even if we meet in non-athletic situations. Anyway I was drinking once with this really big guy, 6'6 and just big (I'm bad at guessing weights for guys that big!). Anyway I guess he was pretty drunk because he was telling me how lucky I was to be small. He was saying how kids like me used to beat him up all the time at his school, he said he was an easy target because he was so big. The guy was nearly in tears! I couldn't sympathize at all, I couldn't imagine that. I just looked at him incredulous. Anyway, stuff like that never happened in my school. :\

 

[silentspace]

Actually though, one of the few fights that did happen in my high school was between this skinny wiry kid and a massive weight lifter. The skinny kid wasn't an athlete, in fact he was a stoner! The bodybuilder was truly massive, he competed in bodybuilding tournaments as a heavyweight and was extremely menacing looking. I don't think either had any 'combat training' like people here are discussing. Anyway the skinny kid completely messed up the big kid. I wasn't there, so I can't really say much else about it.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Now, I ask you Pendragon... imagine yourself up against a significantly stronger opponent who, while stronger, didn't have the training you do, didn't have the two years of practice applying the dexterity to the strength he's built. So as to remove this from the realm of "But I've had fighting training, so that's comparing a fighter to a commoner", let's also assume that this person has had 'combat' training, but in a different style, say boxing.

Now, give you both swords. He's stronger, do you think he'll win?

Definitely I'd give the win to myself. But I do agree with other posters who've pointed out some of the flaws in this comparison.

I don't mean to say that dexterity isn't important in combat. As I said earlier in the thread, D&D's combat system is a simplistic abstract that assigns very complex concepts very simple rolls. In real combat, certainly dexterity has a role. My point though, then and now, is that strength will play a larger one. Not only does strength bear upon the force of one's blow, but it also bears upon the speed of the blow and the accuracy of that blow, things that non-combatants often associate with dexterity but in actual sparring are largely also due to strength.

Granted, I take your point that strength is indeed "the" key factor. But then again, for DnD comparisions to real world issue... I'll have to say that we don't get more HP's as we level, and the average person has got maybe 6 HP's max. That +4 to damage is going to make a huge difference.

Edit: Especially if you use two hands for +6....

True enough. I'm not trying to downplay dexterity, really. But the OP originally wanted to know why D&D chose strength to be the linked attribute to attack bonus. He couldn't understand why strength would be more important to actually hitting your foe, than dexterity, which is, in D&D, is the "accuracy stat" as illustrated by the fact that ranged weapons add dex to attack, and Weapon Finesse, described as the precision placement of blows over force, also allows dex to apply to attack. My response was merely an attempt to explain why, IMO, strength is the perfect stat to (simplistically) be the main attribute linked to a melee attack.

Actually though, one of the few fights that did happen in my high school was between this skinny wiry kid and a massive weight lifter. The skinny kid wasn't an athlete, in fact he was a stoner! The bodybuilder was truly massive, he competed in bodybuilding tournaments as a heavyweight and was extremely menacing looking. I don't think either had any 'combat training' like people here are discussing. Anyway the skinny kid completely messed up the big kid. I wasn't there, so I can't really say much else about it.

From listening to stories from my Dad (who's been in his fair share of fights), I'd say there might have been a little of the "small man syndrome" here. A lot of the time, a smaller man is simply more berserk in a fight, because he is the smaller man. He knows that if he doesn't go for broke, he's going to get pummeled. Conversely a bigger man has a natural confidence that he won't get beaten, until that smaller man beats him within an inch of his life.

Sorry about not responding earlier. After things took a turn on the previous page, I figured I wasn't going to have much to contribute here.