Why does STR affect Attack Bonus?

[Lord Pendragon]

Not true!! In aikido, the women in training were, in essence, the 90 lb weakling. Once they learned the tricks of kipping and weight manipulation, they were consistantly faster in their recovery. They didn't strike harder, but that is where accuracy comes in to play (have the bumps and bruises to prove it ).

I'm not sure aikido is the best example to prove your point here. I haven't practiced it myself, but having seen it and had friends who practiced it. Isn't aikido mostly an art of joint-locks and holds/throws? Not quite the best martial art to demonstrate the recovery time of strikes and blows...

Remember, weapons don't have to be over your head or behind the back to strike with power.

Indeed, in kendo you don't strike from over the shoulder or behind the back. The blade starts directly overhead and strikes forward.

I just wanted point out here that although I believe that the speed of sword blows stems from the strength of the combatant, I do agree with your assertion that applied strength is not the issue. But having that strength, that muscle mass, is what allows a swordsman to have a faster and more accurate attack.

You've also mentioned the relaxation and recovery time required in swordfighting, which I also want to agree with. A kendo strike is not like swinging a bat at a baseball. It requires a swift strike, with an immediate release of strength directly after the strike connects. Not a constant applied force.

So while I still believe that strength rather than dexterity is the source of the speed and power of a swordstroke, I do want to go on record that all of the methodology you've been mentioning in your posts is, as far as my lesser experience is concerned, spot on.

 

[Storyteller01]

Lesser?! At least you've had the opprotunity to whack people! Practicing with bokken and live steel does give an edge, but I'd love, for once, to take a swing at someone without holding back, just to force my own reactions. A vast majority of my experience is under controlled circumstances (far too easy for injuries to occur).

Oh well...

As you mentioned, Str definitely adds power and speed (we agree to disagree on the exact degree). Just erked me when the 'Strength is speed' statement had been posted. Personal foible...

 

[Storyteller01]

I'm not sure aikido is the best example to prove your point here. I haven't practiced it myself, but having seen it and had friends who practiced it. Isn't aikido mostly an art of joint-locks and holds/throws? Not quite the best martial art to demonstrate the recovery time of strikes and blows...

Agreed from a hand to hand stand point, but the weapons methodologies are pretty universal thoughout the Japanese arts. Was hoping to find some common ground...

Indeed, in kendo you don't strike from over the shoulder or behind the back. The blade starts directly overhead and strikes forward.

It's even worse when your opponent can make a powerful strike without ever moving his hands from his center!! Painful too...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

At least you've had the opprotunity to whack people!

You know it's funny you put it that way. While I was in Japan I had friends of mine asking me why I was interested in kendo, and that was my answer. "Are you kidding me? I get to spend hours whacking people with a stick!"

Practicing with bokken and live steel does give an edge, but I'd love, for once, to take a swing at someone without holding back, just to force my own reactions. A vast majority of my experience is under controlled circumstances (far too easy for injuries to occur).

I recall my aikido-practicing friend mentioning that their sparring wasn't really...sparring...since most of the techniques in aikido involve breaking joints and bones.

On the other hand, I used to practice late at night in the dojo, and every week I shared the dojo with a guy practicing iaido with a naked blade. I always wanted to get into that too, just to get the feel for live steel. Never got the chance, though.

As you mentioned, Str definitely adds power and speed (we agree to disagree on the exact degree). Just erked me when the 'Strength is speed' statement had been posted. Personal foible...

Fair enough. And to be honest, I'm not really arguing against you. I'm just not sure how to quantify the D&D Dexterity stat, whereas it's easier to equate Strength with the muscle mass needed for quick, accurate sword strikes. So I find it easy to accept the D&D Strength=Attack Bonus abstraction.

 

[silentspace]

I think I'll abuse the baseball analogy some more. In baseball, nothing matters more than bat speed. Nothing. The stronger you are, the faster you can swing a bat. You need bat speed to produce force, and thus homeruns (damage), but you also need it to catch up to a 98 mph fast ball, (to hit).

And I don't buy the dex for touch attacks route either. The faster you can "reach out and touch someone" the harder it is for them to dodge. Thus strength is the right attribute again.

If what you say was true, the sluggers would have the best averages. Unfortunately, they do not.

 

[silentspace]

In the real world within the normal height and weight range of body and weapon, there is no sacrifice of speed for strength. None whatsoever. It is a myth.

Fists and foils are hardly typical weapons in D&D -- they are at one extreme end. Yes, being lighter may well gain you some helpful speed advantage if you confine your world to extremely light weapons. So what?

Put a measly 3lb. club in your hands and it is a completely different story.

I'm not sure anyone has said there is an inverse relationship between speed and strength.

 

[silentspace]

I'm saying that Dex would represent your ability to quickly slip a punch, or parry a strike with your hand.

Weapon finesse would seem to work well with weapons that are easily manipulated by hand movements. For example, a quick flick of the wrist can create a thrust with a rapier to devastating effect. I could not see the same happening with a longsword.

No, I would not consider boxing gloves to be weapon finessable because of how they are used. Punching is basically a full body movement if you want proper force, and a full body movement wouldn't be a "lighter weapon" IMO.

What about the lightweights, who have faster handspeed?

 

[monboesen]

There's one aspect of speed we have yet to introduce in this discussion. Thats reflexive speed vs. conscious speed (not a native english speaker so I'm not sure thats the correct terms).

Basically any movement you make has to be planned out by your brain and then signals must be send along the nerves to the muscels that will retract in order to carry out the movement.

For untrained (combat) movement it would go along like this.

Eyes send sensory input to brain; brain decides on reaction; brain sends signal to muscles; muscles contract.

This process takes some time, the scale is in the order of tens of seconds (typically about 0,3-0,5 seconds depending on complexity). That is of course much to slow to be effective.

But after a sufficient amount of repetitions (scale of tens of thousands) a specific movement becomes reflexive. Signals are still being send to the brain but does not really need to be processed anymore, signals are shunted straight to the right muscles which then contract.

This cuts down on reaction speed and allows for instance some martial artists to strike 6-8 times a second.

Takes biology teachers hat off and Dm hat on.

So in fact speed also depends on a third factor that is neither modelled by Str or Dex but more closely by training. That actually ties nicely in with the highest BAB classes ending up with the most attacks.

 

[DarkMaster]

Well all these theory are nice but I think the reason why strenght is used instead of dexterity is because of AC.

With the concept of AC strength is the obvious stat to use, especially when the AC score is mostly made of armor and natural armor. (when it's based on dexterity and quickness than the concepts fall apart a little).

IMO if you want to use dex you need to use a touch attack / DR armor combat concepts. Dexterity will help you touch your enemy but your strength will allow you to overcome the armor.

For example take two 1st level fighter one with STR 10 DEX 18 and one with STR18 DEX 10, both in elven chain shirt

With AC concepts FTR 1 has +1/1d8 dmg and FTR2 has +5/1d8+5 FTR 1 has AC18 and FTR2 has AC 14

On average FTR1 will do 0.4*4.5 dmg to FTR2 1.8 dmg/round
FTR2 will do 0.4*8.5 to FTR1 3.4 dmg/round

Now using a concept of armor DR

FTR1 has +1/1d8+4 AC10 DR4
FTR2 has +5/1d8 AC14 DR4

FTR 1 hits for 0.8*(4.5-4) 0.4dmg
FTR 2 hits for 0.4*(8.5-4) 1.8dmg

and the example become worse as the armor increases. What initially was seen as an advantage for the dextrous fighter is actually a disadvantage especially at higher level where creature would have huge DR, making them almost completly ineffective. Yes they would hit the dragon with all their attack but none of them would go through their scale.

So if we plan on using the abstract AC concepts using STR makes a lot of sense. With AC when you roll the dice you don't roll the dice to see if you hit, you roll to see if you were able to damage your opponent which are two very different concepts.

Using Dex in the AC concepts would be wrong IMO, because you could be the fastest kid on your block, making 5+ attack per round that hits their target, if you can't go through the armor you would have been much better with one slow powerfull blow.

 

[Parlan]

Difficult for me to describe in words. In my Iaido training, using strength (tensing up, tighten grips, forcing the movement of the weapon, etc) actually slowed you down. This also reduced actual power output (tensed muscles tend to work against each other). But my instructor always emphasised using koshi (also known as power or 'umph' in class ). It included full body movement, intention, and relaxation.

"Koshi" just means "hips". It sounds like he wanted you to get your power not from your arms/shoulders but from your hips and legs. As you said, this same principle applies for all martial arts and, I think, to every sport.

Afterall, the most fundamental part of boxing, I've heard, is good footwork.