Why does STR affect Attack Bonus?

[Storyteller01]

No combat training.

And my question to you is how many kinds of physical activities have you studied serirously? Sports, dance, martial arts, etc.

4 years military infantry/mortars (combat training as well as endurance and strength training), 6 years security exp (including baton and stun gun training [shocking grasp anyone ? ]), 5 years aikido (including staves, knives, some baton work, and swords) , 6 years iaido (swordsmanship with live steel), 2 years dance at Arthur Murray's (waltz, salsa [sort of], fox trot, tango, and rumba as focus's).

Side note: I find that the body movements used in dance and martial arts are remarkably similar. The aikido tenkan is identical to the salsa gaucho, for example. The standard waltz step , or box step, is a smaller version of the iaido/aikido 45 degree step (or stepping offline). Even the hand movements in dance and these martial arts tend to follow the center line.

Balance (in movement, in strikes, in thought process, etc) has always seemed more important in all of these disciplines. Increased strength didn't improve speed on its own, but relaxation and full body movement/manipulation of physics did, and to a greater degree than strength alone (such as increasing the speed for raising a sword blade by kipping its weight up, rather than lifting the blade with the arm. You do the same on the down stroke, kipping it over your head and allowing gravity/momentum to take over).

 

[Storyteller01]

I do not understand how this is a counterargument at all to what I said. I am simply saying that Strength is generally much more important to speed than Dexterity.

Sorry, didn't fully analyze my arguement before presenting it. Thought you meant that Strength and Dex were the same in combat.

New Arguement then...

With a razor sharp weapon (or just about any weapon), applied ('bruiser' for lack of a better term) strength will hinder you. The 'other use of strength' is not strength; it is physics. You shift your body weight, and apply just enough strength to get the blade moving. This split second burst will determine the power and penetration of the strike. From there it is a matter of momentum, gravity, and intention (masses accelerate when they travel on a curve, and the slight body shift means you've just added your mass to the power of the strike). Your own strength at the point of impact is more of a reinforcement than a driving force.

Speed comes from weight manipulation (of the weapon an well as the body; after blocking in combat, sometimes its easier to move your body to the weapon rather than pull the weapon back to the body) and efficient movement (one of many definitions of Dex).

 

[monboesen]

To further blur the issue IMO great strength usually also mean greater toughness (ability to absorb a blow). In fact to some extent the ability scores Str, Dex and Con would be related.

Really hideous Str (like the guys in world strongests men contests) would limit your speed and Dex somewhat. It would also by default mean higher Con/HP (not neccecarily restance to disease and such stuff).

There is simply more matter to absorb the blow (or cut through, though it would likely mean less for sharp/pointy weapons).

Without Str you will also tire soon when wielding most weapons. Even a 3 pound sword will feel heavy after some swinging, parrying and so on. That will slow you down and reduce precision.

Bottomline. These things are naturally much more complicated than D&D rules can approximate. Str affect melee combat rolls because it certainly factors into your ability to land telling blows on your opponent and because of game balance issues.

 

[silentspace]

OK, we have to assume that DEX exists! If we say that everything related to what we think of as DEX can be explained away by BAB or skill ranks, where does that leave us? Then we should just eliminate DEX as a stat, and everyone would agree wholeheartedly that DEX wouldn't affect Attack Bonus, since it doesn't exist!

 

[silentspace]

Bottomline. These things are naturally much more complicated than D&D rules can approximate. Str affect melee combat rolls because it certainly factors into your ability to land telling blows on your opponent and because of game balance issues.

Agreed! Many of us said similar things. I don't think anyone here has a problem with the game mechanics, we're just discussing what we think would be more "realistic". I just think its odd that some think of STR as the be-all and end-all, and dexterity is really just "BAB" or "skill ranks". Or roll DEX into STR.

 

[Bryan898]

IMO strength would not only affect the power behind the blow, but the speed at which it is thrown. IME with boxing, the more muscular guys are actually faster, to a point. If you think someone like Mike Tyson threw slow punches than you're crazy. They learn how to harness their strength into explosive energy (aka intensity). Of course, in boxing, you train to acheive that goal. Dexerity to me seems more like your reflexes, your hand-eye coordination, and manual movements. Hence with lighter weapons that can be swung or used with ease, they have Weapon Finesse. It seems to make perfect sense and be balanced to me.

 

[silentspace]

IMO strength would not only affect the power behind the blow, but the speed at which it is thrown. IME with boxing, the more muscular guys are actually faster, to a point. If you think someone like Mike Tyson threw slow punches than you're crazy. They learn how to harness their strength into explosive energy (aka intensity). Of course, in boxing, you train to acheive that goal. Dexerity to me seems more like your reflexes, your hand-eye coordination, and manual movements. Hence with lighter weapons that can be swung or used with ease, they have Weapon Finesse. It seems to make perfect sense and be balanced to me.

OK, comments like this are what confuse me. You are taking someone who we know is strong. He is also fast. Therefore, strength = speed. Then you say DEX equals reflexes, hand-eye coordination, and manual movements, and suggest that DEX would affect lighter weapons. Do you consider boxing gloves to be a non-finessable weapon?

People, Tyson was not a clutz! And Muhammed Ali was not weak!

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Well, if nothing else, this thread has certainly illustrated that the reality of actual combat is far more complex than the D&D system that represents it. D&D's attribute system is both too simple and conversely too abstract to truly represent the combination of mass, muscle-strength, hand-eye coordination, speed, conditioning, and skill that together form a real-life combatant's prowess.

Where does D&D Strength leave off, and Dexterity begin? Some, like myself, see Strength as representing the muscle power that leads to quicker and more accurate blows with blades. Others, also experienced combatants, view that quickness as a result of force and dexterity. Where does Constitution fit it? Con is usually considered physical wellness of some kind. Doesn't that fit in somewhere as well?

I don't think there are any wrong answers here, really.

However, I do think that the thread has shown a myriad of reasons why STR might plausibly affect attack bonus. There are many theories here which, while arguable, are nevertheless sensible and believable. Add that to the fact that D&D's mechanic needs to incorporate balance among the stats, and it becomes even more understandable why it was designed as it was.

Why does STR affect Attack Bonus?

Because there are several sensible reasons why it would. And Dex already affects half a dozen stats in the game.

 

[silentspace]

I think in reality we all agree. Where we differ is in assigning qualities such as speed, control of your body weight and momentum, coordination, and power to different in-game attributes (or BAB, skills, etc)

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I think in reality we all agree. Where we differ is in assigning qualities such as speed, control of your body weight and momentum, coordination, and power to different in-game attributes (or BAB, skills, etc)

*nod* Still, it's one of the more interesting topics we've had recently.