Why does STR affect Attack Bonus?

[silentspace]

I agree with storyteller, and I think the comparisons between a strong and dextrous fighter versus a weak and dextrous fighter are flawed. People who are weak are not automatically dextrous. And people who are strong are not automatically uncoordinated. IRL all great athletes have high STR and DEX. Even those who don't look any bigger than average people usually are much stronger!

Anyway, the question was why does STR affect Attack Bonus? The general consensus seems to be because it helps punch through armor. Which doesn't work for me. I think that would be why STR affects Damage Bonus, not Attack Bonus. IMO DEX affecting Attack Bonus would be a better model of reality.

Take baseball. Does STR or DEX help you hit the ball better? I think pretty clearly it is DEX. Does STR or DEX help you hit homeruns? Just as clearly, it is STR. It's not the same as fighting, but I think the same principle applies.

That being said, I have no problem with the game mechanics. It's all somewhat abstract anyway.

 

[Maniac]

Hello all, sorry to jump into this thread so late but I wanted to add some thoughts.

One of the things that frustrates me about Stength vs. Dexterity discussions is that I don't think its clear what a high dexterity means and so it has different meanings to different people.

Strength can be measured in the real world. Certainly there are many kinds of strength and different ways to measure it but it can be measured.

How do you quantify Dexterity? How do you measure it. For me I think of dexterity as someone who is athletic. Someone who is athletic has a natural talent at things but it only goes so far before training is necessary.

In my opinion training will outpace somones athletic talent in terms of performance at a specific task. It would cetainly make training easier at that task than for someone without the natural atletic ability but a sufficiently trained individual is going to be better than an untrained athelete.

I mentional all of this because I think that skill in fighting is often confused with the dexterity stat. Skill encompasis many things including application of strength and quickness of action.

I believe that a stronger larger guy has a great advantage over an athletic but otherwise untrained fighter. A skilled figher on the other had goes someway to closing the gap.

In the game, Fightin skill is measurd by level and class.

One other point of anecdotal evidence. I study martial arts. Several years ago I focused training almost entirely on weights. I did not practice martial arts to any great extent during a several month period. When I went back to it my kicks had improved tremendously. I could kick faster, higher and harder with almost no direct training of kicks. However, other aspects of sparring such as reaction time did not have any notible gains and may have even declined a bit due to lack of training.

Thanks for you time.

M.

 

[Ravellion]

Anyway, the question was why does STR affect Attack Bonus? The general consensus seems to be because it helps punch through armor. Which doesn't work for me. I think that would be why STR affects Damage Bonus, not Attack Bonus. IMO DEX affecting Attack Bonus would be a better model of reality.

The consensus was that it allowed for better wielding of weapons, whch in D&D is still the norm of all attacks. Unarmed? Sure: here you go: Weapon Finesse: Unarmed attack (3.0) or Weapon Finesse (3.5).

Take baseball. Does STR or DEX help you hit the ball better? I think pretty clearly it is DEX. Does STR or DEX help you hit homeruns? Just as clearly, it is STR. It's not the same as fighting, but I think the same principle applies.

Weighted bats were mentioned in the thread earlier. However, i'd say it is actually Profession: Baseball player that let's you hit the the ball really well. Which is a Wisdom skill.

Rav

edit: Not a very memorable 2500th post... oh well.

 

[Storyteller01]

I'll take cunning over strength any day, up until I am stuck inside a 20' square with a Mike-Tyson-type.

Age and cunning beats youth and enthusiasm every time!

 

[Storyteller01]

I'm curious about your difference between Strength and Power though. Could you elaborate?

Difficult for me to describe in words. In my Iaido training, using strength (tensing up, tighten grips, forcing the movement of the weapon, etc) actually slowed you down. This also reduced actual power output (tensed muscles tend to work against each other). But my instructor always emphasised using koshi (also known as power or 'umph' in class ). It included full body movement, intention, and relaxation. Wierd and counter intuitive, but it works. The same ideal is found in all martial training. Sorry I can't elaborate further, difficult to abstract

I don't really follow you here. Pro athletes do all sorts of training,to increase both speed and strength.

People keep making the weight lifter example as the slow strong guy, but remember, there's different ways to lift weights. The stereotypcial way is few repetitions and lots of weight to build mass, but mass building is not the only way to lift. Every athlete that I know of does some kind of weight training, even figure skaters.

Rebuttal on Rid. Cohort's comment. I'm not inclined to believe that strength is the whole of speed, or that there is no separation between the two.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Difficult for me to describe in words. In my Iaido training, using strength (tensing up, tighten grips, forcing the movement of the weapon, etc) actually slowed you down. This also reduced actual power output (tensed muscles tend to work against each other). But my instructor always emphasised using koshi (also known as power or 'umph' in class ). It included full body movement, intention, and relaxation. Wierd and counter intuitive, but it works. The same ideal is found in all martial training. Sorry I can't elaborate further, difficult to abstract

That isn't the case of not using strength, it is an example of not using strength the correct way. It is a common issue when teaching an unnatural style of movement, such as dance. The hard part is often unlearning the habit of tensing the wrong muscles. (The wrong muscles are the right muscles in everyday life.)

The secret to speed is Strength + Relaxation. I do not see how dexterity or reflexes has anything to do with it. By some stretch of the imagination it is a coordination issue, but it is more related to proper training IMO. Naturally coordinated people develop habits from living their life like everyone else.

 

[Storyteller01]

The secret to speed is Strength + Relaxation. I do not see how dexterity or reflexes has anything to do with it.

Again, I'd disagree. When striking with a sword or slashing weapon, it has to be on an exact angle based on the postion of the target. Even a single mm difference can cause the blade to deflect or rebound (anyone spend a day chopping at a stump, then hit it at the wrong angle?) . Even without the rebound or deflect, you won't do nearly as much damage as a correct cut.

And let's not forget that targets will move to protect vital areas. Dex is needed to get around this.

Not being snarky or arguementative, this is a real question:
What kind of combat (not sport) training have you had RC?

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I'll take cunning over strength any day, up until I am stuck inside a 20' square with a Mike-Tyson-type.

As I've explained to my friends many, many times, in a boxing ring, Mike Tyson will kill me. I used to say third round when I was healthy, but probably first now that I'm sick. (I'd probably get up until I died, too.)

But put me in a bar with him, and I'll win every time. I'll start crying, apologize, and buy him a drink. When he's halfway through it-- I shiv him in the lungs.

 

[pbd]

As I've explained to my friends many, many times, in a boxing ring, Mike Tyson will kill me. I used to say third round when I was healthy, but probably first now that I'm sick. (I'd probably get up until I died, too.)

But put me in a bar with him, and I'll win every time. I'll start crying, apologize, and buy him a drink. When he's halfway through it-- I shiv him in the lungs.

Well maybe Hollyfield, but not Tyson. He would bite your ear off then shiv you before you got the chance

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Again, I'd disagree. When striking with a sword or slashing weapon, it has to be on an exact angle based on the postion of the target. Even a single mm difference can cause the blade to deflect or rebound (anyone spend a day chopping at a stump, then hit it at the wrong angle?) . Even without the rebound or deflect, you won't do nearly as much damage as a correct cut.

And let's not forget that targets will move to protect vital areas. Dex is needed to get around this.

I do not understand how this is a counterargument at all to what I said. I am simply saying that Strength is generally much more important to speed than Dexterity.

Not being snarky or arguementative, this is a real question:
What kind of combat (not sport) training have you had RC?

No combat training.

And my question to you is how many kinds of physical activities have you studied serirously? Sports, dance, martial arts, etc.