Why does STR affect Attack Bonus?

[Particle_Man]

I have heard it said that for many game systems (not D&D) dexterity (or something like it) is made more important to combat than strength (or something like it) because most game designers used to be the little kids that got the snot beaten out of them by bigger, stronger bullies on the schoolyard playground. A form of revenge, as it were.

Anyhow, has there ever been a case historically where an army of stronger soldiers faced an army of weaker but quicker soldiers? Assume an open battlefield, no ambushes, etc. Maybe that would give us some clues.

 

[Storm Raven]

Anyhow, has there ever been a case historically where an army of stronger soldiers faced an army of weaker but quicker soldiers? Assume an open battlefield, no ambushes, etc. Maybe that would give us some clues.

Marathon? Gaugamela? Arbela? Poitiers?

 

[Psimancer]

I have heard it said that for many game systems (not D&D) dexterity (or something like it) is made more important to combat than strength (or something like it) because most game designers used to be the little kids that got the snot beaten out of them by bigger, stronger bullies on the schoolyard playground. A form of revenge, as it were.

ROFLMAO…

I have to agree here, whole heartedly.

In addition to the main reasons posted (to heft the weapon, muscular endurance, penetrating armour & game balance), I would also like to add another; Tendency.

Generally (Yes, this is a generalisation!), the stronger you are, the more likely it is that you will resolve conflict with violence.

(An intelligent man will think his way out of a situation, a dexterous one will evade it and a charismatic one will talk his way through…)

So what you end up with is a strong guy who is more likely to have fought in his past and have more experience in combat. And more experience equates to more likely to successfully strike.

Therefore High STR = Bonus To Hit

I would agree that this reason alone does not make a compelling case, but taken in conjunction with the other factors, it does work. And it also gives reason why strength is still used for touch attacks…

And on Particle Mans post, who are the bullies at school? The quick, dexterous guys or the big meathead jocks???

 

[jerichothebard]

As a two-year practioner of kendo, this is absolutely true, in my experience. Strength is by far the most important attribute in swordfighting (or my experience of kendo, at least, it may be different for fencers or other types of bladed combat.)

It is different for, say, foil fencers. Which, of course, is where the Weapon Finesse comes into play.


see? It's all starting to make sense!

 

[Storyteller01]

That, plus you have to remember that armor makes you harder to hit. High strength helps you punch through armor, and thus makes it easier for you to hit.

Ditto...

 

[Storyteller01]

As a two-year practioner of kendo, this is absolutely true, in my experience. Strength is by far the most important attribute in swordfighting (or my experience of kendo, at least, it may be different for fencers or other types of bladed combat.)

The greater your strength, the faster and more accurate your blows. Dexterity is most useful for avoiding your opponent's blows. Which is excellently modeled by Dex to AC.

YMMV... My experience is different, but I study a different art.

 

[Shuffle]

Have you ever watched the Ultimate Fighter? It was a TV show for a while that pitted various fighters in a cage match, any style goes. Not sure if it's still on. It was an amazing thing to watch. Basically, the big strong guy always won. The fancy martial arts guy would try and kick or punch the muscle brute, who would take the blow (or blows), rush up to the martial artist, grab him, throw him to the ground, and beat the living crud out of him. That show shattered a lot of illusions about real hand-to-hand combat.
I'm afraid it is true, regardless of your opinion. :\

I have watched UFC's many times. I disagree with you. The stronger guy didn't usually win... The Grappler usually won. However 2 grapplers would usually come down to size. Unless of course the larger grappler was fighting Royce Gracie for the first time..

Or UFC 4 where Severn was given a descision over Olag Taktarov, Olag had that fight but has the misfortune of being one of the worst bleeders I have ever seen.

On weapons though you're bang on. When swinging something Strength is speed and control.

 

[Storyteller01]

I'm telling you from my personal experience this isn't true. Perhaps in an extreme case where you're comparing a Str 100 guy against a Dex 100 guy. But in every swordfight I've seen and participated in, strength is key. Strength is speed in swordfighting.Have you ever watched the Ultimate Fighter? It was a TV show for a while that pitted various fighters in a cage match, any style goes. Not sure if it's still on. It was an amazing thing to watch. Basically, the big strong guy always won. The fancy martial arts guy would try and kick or punch the muscle brute, who would take the blow (or blows), rush up to the martial artist, grab him, throw him to the ground, and beat the living crud out of him. That show shattered a lot of illusions about real hand-to-hand combat.
I'm afraid it is true, regardless of your opinion. :\

Also remember that some styles (like types of aikido) aren't allowed for one reason or another. They are Dex based, and a little TOO effective to be allowed. Don't forget that those matches still follow a given rules set. In real combat, the lighter guy doesn't get penalized for landing a groin shot...

Again, as for strength being the absolute definitive in combat, I would have to disagree. IME (or training), both are paramount. In the style of swordsmanship I practice, control to emphasised, including when to apply strength.

You don't apply it at all times. Manipulation of the weapon requires fine finger control and going with the flow. Trying to strong arm or consciously control the weapon actyally hinders you (slows you down). Strength is needed to powwer through a target however (the style I practice actually has a grip designed to add power and protect the weapon when plowing through armor).

And for wht it's worth, crazy ole Van Dam deliberately reduced mass to gain speed. Must be good for something...

One last example; in one of the first UFC's a savate (butchered the spelling) specialist took down a sumo wrestler with a sidestep and a kick to the face. The Savatist actually did well in the competition (think he was taken down by a grappler).

 

[Storyteller01]

I would just like to point out that most of the examples that have been given, from UFC etc., relate to a quick but small person (high dex lower strength) fighting a quick AND strong person (high strength AND dex). In this situation you are skewing the example in favor of the strong and fast person wins, unless the small guy is VERY fast.

I think the comparison is between the quick, small guy vs. the strong, slow guy is actually better seved by the comparison to the body builder or some "fighter" that sacrifices speed for strength...

And, as mentioined earlier, the options allowed within the fight are limited to the rules & regs of the fight. There are countless examples of professional fighters losing in the real world because of this reason.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I think the comparison is between the quick, small guy vs. the strong, slow guy is actually better seved by the comparison to the body builder or some "fighter" that sacrifices speed for strength...

In the real world within the normal height and weight range of body and weapon, there is no sacrifice of speed for strength. None whatsoever. It is a myth.

Fists and foils are hardly typical weapons in D&D -- they are at one extreme end. Yes, being lighter may well gain you some helpful speed advantage if you confine your world to extremely light weapons. So what?

Put a measly 3lb. club in your hands and it is a completely different story.