Why does STR affect Attack Bonus?

[Storyteller01]

In the real world within the normal height and weight range of body and weapon, there is no sacrifice of speed for strength. None whatsoever. It is a myth.

Fists and foils are hardly typical weapons in D&D -- they are at one extreme end. Yes, being lighter may well gain you some helpful speed advantage if you confine your world to extremely light weapons. So what?

Put a measly 3lb. club in your hands and it is a completely different story.

Better question would be "what is the difference between strength and actual power?".


IME (and a few others) those who rely wholly on strength lose against experienced opponents (speaking as a security guard who has had to take opponents down). Granted, all things being equal those with the size/strength have the edge, but this does not guarantee a win.

Watch pro fighters train. They don't measure their training on the amount of weight they can bench/lift, they measure by the amount of damage they can do (or points they can earn, for the sport games). Why else would boxers aim for head/jaw shots as well as kindey/ other damaging body shots?

If strength were all important, weight lifters would would also be faster. Boxers (or any other professional fighter, including bouncers/coolers) would not train to improve their speed/reaction times. Hence, there must be a distinction between strength, speed, and power.


BTW, there is a reason security and police are instucted never to use a baton (club, and less than 3 lbs) on the head or back, and your smaller police can still kill with one.


Shutting up now...

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Better question would be "what is the difference between strength and actual power?".

IME (and a few others) those who rely wholly on strength lose against experienced opponents (speaking as a security guard who has had to take opponents down). Granted, all things being equal those with the size/strength have the edge, but this does not guarantee a win.

Those who rely wholly on speed lose to experience opponents, too. But I do not that is not relevant to the topic at hand either.

We are assuming that we speak of opponents of comparable quality in training, right?

In fact, if you compare welterweight boxers to heavyweights you can see an obvious difference in punch speed. But the welterweights do not dare step into the same ring as the heavy weights. Both are well-trained & highly skilled athletes.

Once in a century we do see a Muhamud Ali. But that just tells me that rare mutants born with a ~20 Dex and a ~15 Str can beat the more typical champion with a ~16 Dex and ~16 Str. Clearly the Ali's are extremely extremely rare.

 

[Storyteller01]

In fact, if you compare welterweight boxers to heavyweights you can see an obvious difference in punch speed. But the welterweights do not dare step into the same ring as the heavy weights. Both are well-trained & highly skilled athletes.

Agreed, but this is sport with rules that favor stronger contenders, not a combat situation.
It's the same reason why grapplers tend to win in the UFC. The situation would be some what different if the grappler fought a knife weilder. As has been mentioned in many other threads, larger boxers lose to smaller opponents outside of the ring because the smaller person doesn't fiight by the 'rules'.

Also, it had been overlooked that I mentioned training in speed as well as power (I prefer this to strength). If Strength was speed, all that would be needed is intensive weight lifting regimines. Instead, pro fighters use speed drills and sparring to improve reflexes and aim as well as strength trainging (ever try hitting a 6 inch ball that bounces around randomly every time you hit it? Not easy, and no strength is involved.). Even jumproping developes endurance, coordination, and power in the legs (for those that need to cover distance quickly). It doesn't develope strength per se.

For a good read on small guys in true combat, check out Dan Dayle in Marine Corps history. "Chesty" Puller wasn't a large guy either. Both were VERY effective in ranged and hand-to hand combat. Dayle held off invaders of an American embassy during the Boxer Rebellion. Said Boxers blew a hole in the wall, so he single handedly defended it while others escaped. He eventually ran out of ammo, so it went to bayonets and hand to hand. He is one of the few (three I believe) to collect two medals of honor (this conflict being the reason for his first )...

Sorry, couldn't help myself. No more hi-jacking

My two cents on Str to improve to hit: Yessir! Improves control if not overused, and helps power through armor. Samurai with katana, even if they didn't cut through the armor, could crush a clavical (or most other bones) with a strong enough blow. If I'm correct (L. Pendragon, help me out here) clavical shots are illegal in kendo for this reason.

 

[Parlan]

Better question would be "what is the difference between strength and actual power?".


IGranted, all things being equal those with the size/strength have the edge, but this does not guarantee a win.

True, but not very helpful. All other things being equal, those with the speed advantage will win. Or, all other things being equal, those with the experience advantage will win.

Nothing guarantees a win. Heck, some US general the most important attribute for a soldier is luck!!

I'm curious about your difference between Strength and Power though. Could you elaborate?

Watch pro fighters train. They don't measure their training on the amount of weight they can bench/lift, they measure by the amount of damage they can do (or points they can earn, for the sport games). Why else would boxers aim for head/jaw shots as well as kindey/ other damaging body shots?

If strength were all important, weight lifters would would also be faster. Boxers (or any other professional fighter, including bouncers/coolers) would not train to improve their speed/reaction times. Hence, there must be a distinction between strength, speed, and power.

I don't really follow you here. Pro athletes do all sorts of training,to increase both speed and strength.

People keep making the weight lifter example as the slow strong guy, but remember, there's different ways to lift weights. The stereotypcial way is few repetitions and lots of weight to build mass, but mass building is not the only way to lift. Every athlete that I know of does some kind of weight training, even figure skaters.

I think that speaks for its value in physical endeavors right there. Or maybe the figure skaters just lift to improve their Jump checks.

 

[reanjr]

Better question would be "what is the difference between strength and actual power?".

Well strength could be said to be force applied over an area or:
N/m^2 -or-
kg/m*s^2

Power is well-defined as:
kg*m^2/s^3

The difference then is:
m^3/s

or volume of the strength applied over time.

Is that helpful?

 

[Jack Simth]

Well strength could be said to be force applied over an area or:
N/m^2 -or-
kg/m*s^2

Power is well-defined as:
kg*m^2/s^3

The difference then is:
m^3/s

or volume of the strength applied over time.

Is that helpful?

No no no - that's the quotient (If I remember the terms correctly - probably not) not the difference - the difference is kg/m*s^2 - kg*m^2/s^3. Which is undefined (type mismatch).

 

[reanjr]

No no no - that's the quotient (If I remember the terms correctly - probably not) not the difference - the difference is kg/m*s^2 - kg*m^2/s^3. Which is undefined (type mismatch).

Damn, and I thought I was going to have the most pedantic post in this thread...

 

[jerichothebard]

Those who rely wholly on speed lose to experience opponents, too. But I do not that is not relevant to the topic at hand either.

We are assuming that we speak of opponents of comparable quality in training, right?

In fact, if you compare welterweight boxers to heavyweights you can see an obvious difference in punch speed. But the welterweights do not dare step into the same ring as the heavy weights. Both are well-trained & highly skilled athletes.

Once in a century we do see a Muhamud Ali. But that just tells me that rare mutants born with a ~20 Dex and a ~15 Str can beat the more typical champion with a ~16 Dex and ~16 Str. Clearly the Ali's are extremely extremely rare.

Remember also that the ring itself places a limitation on the fight, which hinders the faster, lighter guy far more than the bigger, slower guy. Less room to manuver = less value on manuverability.

 

[Lasher Dragon]

I'll take cunning over strength any day, up until I am stuck inside a 20' square with a Mike-Tyson-type.

 

[glass]

I can see good arguments for both Str and Dex modifying the attack roll, so why not allow either (without burning a feat)? It may not be terribly realistic, but then neither are dragons

Game Balance.

Dexterity affects on AC, Ref Save, Ranged Attack Bonus and a lot of skills. If a character can use Dex mod for melee attack without taking feat, for every weapons, we will start to see truly a lot of characters which invest all the point cost (assuming point-buy) to Dex. It is not a good idea to make one ability score overly important.

I know all of that. Obviously, you'd have to change things around a bit, otherwise you'd move from 'all fighters must have strength' to 'all figters must have dex', which does't help the situation at all.


glass.