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Why does Undead=Evil
- Thread starter Moff_Tarkin
- Start date
Kalanyr
Explorer
Hmm, some interesting arguments here but a few points I want to make.
a) Negative Energy is NOT inherently evil, the Negative Energy Plane is unaligned. Ditto for Positive Energy with respect to good. These planes are the greatest concentrations of theses energies in the entire multiverse its safe to say that if these energies had an innate alignment these planes would definitely be aligned.
b) There is certainly a perception of alignment to them after all most of us view death as evil and life as good. This is probably why the books seem to waiver on this topic.
c) Isis effectively made Osiris a mummy, and neither deity was viewed as evil in Egypt. In fact Osiris was a banner bearer for good in their religion.
And now for my opinion:
Animate Dead is evil by default in D&D because in the literature D&D is associated with the necromancer is the bad guy who raises armies of the foul dead to serve his malign purposes, most of the Necromancy school suffers from this, and this has become more pronounced since 3e since healing has been moved to the conjuration school. And on a moral level it easy to justify it as binding the soul to the corpse, probably the only way to justify it really, since a) making Flesh Golems isn't Evil and b) nor is using Animate Obect on a corpse.
a) Negative Energy is NOT inherently evil, the Negative Energy Plane is unaligned. Ditto for Positive Energy with respect to good. These planes are the greatest concentrations of theses energies in the entire multiverse its safe to say that if these energies had an innate alignment these planes would definitely be aligned.
b) There is certainly a perception of alignment to them after all most of us view death as evil and life as good. This is probably why the books seem to waiver on this topic.
c) Isis effectively made Osiris a mummy, and neither deity was viewed as evil in Egypt. In fact Osiris was a banner bearer for good in their religion.
And now for my opinion:
Animate Dead is evil by default in D&D because in the literature D&D is associated with the necromancer is the bad guy who raises armies of the foul dead to serve his malign purposes, most of the Necromancy school suffers from this, and this has become more pronounced since 3e since healing has been moved to the conjuration school. And on a moral level it easy to justify it as binding the soul to the corpse, probably the only way to justify it really, since a) making Flesh Golems isn't Evil and b) nor is using Animate Obect on a corpse.
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Pesky Double Post!
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Part of this, it seems to me, is how you define undeath. There are numerous legends, like the above-mentioned ressurection/mummification of Osiris in which death is reversed in some way and a person is returned to an ambulatory state.
Orpheus, demigod of music, almost succeeded in bringing his beloved Eurydice back to life, failing only because he lacked trust in the deal he struck with Hades.
Not evil.
The goddess Persephone annually returned from the land of the dead in order to bring back Spring...her mother Demeter wouldn't allow Spring to return until she got her daughter back from Hades.
Not evil.
The deceased heroes of Valhalla are to return to fight in Ragnarok
Not evil.
The Asgardians ALMOST revived Baldur.
Not evil.
Whether these are actual cases of undeath is up to you. But the undeath = evil equation DOES ignore the numerous undead protector legends of European folklore, usually involving the ghost of a parent or lover saving their surviving loved ones.
Usually, these are touted as paeans to "undying love" as opposed to evidence of evil.
I mean, regardless of what you think of the movie itself, I'm pretty sure Patrick Swayze's Ghost character was NOT evil.
Perhaps the answer lies in HRing these spells to include intent, or perhaps introducing good or neutral versions of the spells.
Orpheus, demigod of music, almost succeeded in bringing his beloved Eurydice back to life, failing only because he lacked trust in the deal he struck with Hades.
Not evil.
The goddess Persephone annually returned from the land of the dead in order to bring back Spring...her mother Demeter wouldn't allow Spring to return until she got her daughter back from Hades.
Not evil.
The deceased heroes of Valhalla are to return to fight in Ragnarok
Not evil.
The Asgardians ALMOST revived Baldur.
Not evil.
Whether these are actual cases of undeath is up to you. But the undeath = evil equation DOES ignore the numerous undead protector legends of European folklore, usually involving the ghost of a parent or lover saving their surviving loved ones.
Usually, these are touted as paeans to "undying love" as opposed to evidence of evil.
I mean, regardless of what you think of the movie itself, I'm pretty sure Patrick Swayze's Ghost character was NOT evil.
Perhaps the answer lies in HRing these spells to include intent, or perhaps introducing good or neutral versions of the spells.
FreeTheSlaves
Adventurer
I don't like using real world examples but consider organ donors (or more correctly the lack of) and the dislike of autopsies by relatives.
The cause of complaint in both cases is that the body belongs to the person and its invasion is a very personal affair.
The create undead spells are evil in that they disrespect the dead persons remains and cause great distress to relatives (and the living in general).
The 3ed definition of evil includes disrespecting other beings, so there is that angle. I mean, the animating spellcaster is always doing it for personal profit without regard to victims, relatives or the living beings sense of decency.
The cause of complaint in both cases is that the body belongs to the person and its invasion is a very personal affair.
The create undead spells are evil in that they disrespect the dead persons remains and cause great distress to relatives (and the living in general).
The 3ed definition of evil includes disrespecting other beings, so there is that angle. I mean, the animating spellcaster is always doing it for personal profit without regard to victims, relatives or the living beings sense of decency.
"Always" is probably too strong a word.
If you have read the entire thread, you'll understand why my suggestion is that you use the word "Often" instead.
If you have read the entire thread, you'll understand why my suggestion is that you use the word "Often" instead.
FreeTheSlaves
Adventurer
I should have added Imnsho.Dannyalcatraz said:
At which point I always back my use of the word "always" 100%
