D&D 5E Why is There No Warlord Equivalent in 5E?

[CleverNickName]

There IS a "Warlord equivalent" in 5E, though. It's an NPC (monster) in Volo's Guide to Monsters, pg. 220, then later reprinted in Monsters of the Multiverse, pg. 257. I won't copy the stats here because it's not SRD, but in a nutshell, the 5E Warlord is a CR12 Legendary monster with the following features:

• Proficient with Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution save throws
• Proficient with Athletics, Intimidation, Perception, and Persuasion
• Proficient with Heavy Armor and Shields
• Proficient with Martial weapons
• Multiattack (two weapon attacks, possibly more as a Legendary action)
• Indomitable 3/day (Fighter class feature)
• Survivor (Champion class feature)
• Command Ally (one ally within 30' can use its reaction to make a weapon attack at advantage). Basically the Battle Master's "Commander's Strike" ability, reworked so that it doesn't use Superiority Dice (monsters don't get 'Superiority Dice'.)
• Frighten Foe (one creature within 30' must make a Wisdom save or be frightened until the end of the Warlord's turn). Basically the Battle Master's "Menacing Attack" ability, also reworked to not use Superiority Dice.

In short, the 5E Warlord is a high-level Battle Master with the Resilient feat and a single Champion ability bolted on.

It would seem that Wizards of the Coast already has an idea of what they want the Warlord to look like. And I worry that if they were to give us a "playable Warlord equivalent," in the spirit of this thread, it would look very similar to what they've already printed for us, twice: a Battle Master that also gets the Survivor ability.

EDIT: or they'd take an even easier route, and just make the Survivor feature into a Battle Master "maneuver" and wash their hands of it altogether.

 

[Undrave]

Extra Attack with none to few base built in damage boosts beyond Fighting style is the norm in most homebrew and 3pp Warlords.

Yup, it's what leave the most 'power budget' to build from. Mine even had a subclass specifically designated as the 'fighter -like' one that get a third attack.

 

[Yaarel]

I’d suggest it’s more likely that your ‘playtest’ was something like ‘yay warlord’ and this warlord feels great’ without realizing that’s because it’s highly overturned (at least at low levels).

The numbers don’t lie. Guy heals more than a life cleric with channel divinities and all spell slots going to healing word assuming 2 short rests at level 2. On top of that he gets fighting style, a few martial weapons, can take heavy armor and has exploits as well.

I am unfamiliar with LaserLlama Warlord. (I have it now and will read it soon.)

I am commenting on your assessment that the following is overpowered:

Level 1: heavy weapon (d10), heavy armor, and 3x Healing Word


Even a Level 1 Cleric can have heavy weapon, heavy armor, and [2x] Healing Word.

The Cleric additionally has other significant class features. Nobody thinks the 5e Cleric is overpowered.

A Level 1 Warlord can easily wield heavy weapon with heavy armor, and while budgeting class features and extra Healing Word. Doing this per Short Rest requires careful attention but seems doable within budget.


Meanwhile, the 5e designers have decided that pretty much ALL healing spells are underpowered. The playtest doubles the amount of healing of spells like Healing Word.

Where LaserLlama similarly enhanced the healing effectiveness of his Warlord, I am confident his design will prove to balance well at level 1.

 

[Yaarel]

I think you underestimate the AEDU system if you think it’s only about cool down timers. Keywords mattered, and powers often had bonus riders that were dependent on your class feature picks.

What’s the point of playing a non-caster if it uses the same damn spell slot system? I think it would be wiser to instead equate Superiority Dice to Spell Points, where you have higher level maneuvers that require you spending superiority dice equal to their level. I would even go as far as simply have the superiority dice entirely replace the weapon damage dice when rolling for a maneuver’s damage.

I know many players care about diverse mechanics. I worry about them because the increasing complexity of mechanics endangers the 5e game engine.

Sometimes different mechanics can work well. For example, LaserLlama using the Warlock chassis with Short Rest spell points, is a breakthru that balances robustly. These points balance better than daily slots do.

(For the sake of balance, as well as mechanical simplicity and intuitive flavor of spell points as personal energy or mana, I think all 5e casters should use Short Rest spell points, by default, instead of vancian-legacy dailies.)


Conceptually, why is an extra Superiority Die different from an extra spell slot, or an additional amount of spell points?


The most important part about spell slots is: slot 7 effects, slot 8 effects, and especially slot 9 effects, can do extremely powerful things − game altering. Fighter Superiority Dice, as is, can never hope to do such powerful things at the highest tiers.

 

[Undrave]

I know many players care about diverse mechanics. I worry about them because the increasing complexity of mechanics endangers the 5e game engine.

Sometimes different mechanics can work well. For example, LaserLlama using the Warlock chassis with Short Rest spell points, is a breakthru that balances robustly. These points balance better than daily slots do.

(For the sake of balance, as well as mechanical simplicity and intuitive flavor of spell points as personal energy or mana, I think all 5e casters should use Short Rest spell points, by default, instead of vancian-legacy dailies.)


Conceptually, why is an extra Superiority Die different from an extra spell slot, or an additional amount of spell points?


The most important part about spell slots is: slot 7 effects, slot 8 effects, and especially slot 9 effects, can do extremely powerful things − game altering. Fighter Superiority Dice, as is, can never hope to do such powerful things at the highest tiers.

Spell points are just more free form than spell slots.

As for the dice, I just like the simplicity of a Level 1 Maneuver costs and deal 1 superiority dice of damage and a higher level one costs more dice and inflicts more dice. Feels like you could save a lot of repetition if it was established as a base rule of maneuvers. You could even say you can 'upcast' by spending additional dice for extra damage. And you could modulate classes that use them by changing the superiority dice. It also means that you can track your points in physical dice you can just move around to roll them for damage or whatever.

But regular points are fine too, if a little flat.

 

[ECMO3]

Augh. I'd say roles were memory holed when the 3e casters and a la carte Multiclassing made it easy to throw all of the roles onto one character.

Multiclassing in 3E felt very restrictive to me with all the XP penalties and favored classes and other such nonsense. Add to that the wierd armor-dex and armor-casting restrictions and multiclassing was not very good.

In 5E I can get heavy armor from a single fighter dip (as long as I do it first) and have no problem with either spells or dexterity checks. The one thing it does affect is stealth and it is pretty simple (although that would be high on my list of things that should change).

This is a ludicrous position. Movement and position in 5e is barely a thing,

Fighters are more difficult to play for newbies than casters. They have more choices and more importantly more bad choices.

Call it ludicrous if you want, but my statement is backed by experience

Resistances don't matter outside of 'do you have a magic weapon or not?' because anything with interaction to the three weapon damage type is stupidly rare

This makes me question whether you have DMed in low level game.

Weapon damage Resistances and vulnerability are much more complex and common at low level than high level and it has nothing to do with magic weapons. Low level games are filled with monsters like Molds, Swarms, Skeletons, Shrubs, Oozes, Memphits, Vegypigmies etc.

There are multiple pages of enemies under CR2 with resistance, vulnerability or immunity to piercing or slashing or bludgeoning (including from magic weapons). I would venture to say 80% of monsters that are resistant or immune to all piercing, or all bludgeoning or all slashing are under CR3.

 

[Yaarel]

Spell points are just more free form than spell slots.

As for the dice, I just like the simplicity of a Level 1 Maneuver costs and deal 1 superiority dice of damage and a higher level one costs more dice and inflicts more dice. Feels like you could save a lot of repetition if it was established as a base rule of maneuvers. You could even say you can 'upcast' by spending additional dice for extra damage. And you could modulate classes that use them by changing the superiority dice. It also means that you can track your points in physical dice you can just move around to roll them for damage or whatever.

But regular points are fine too, if a little flat.

I can get on board with Superiority Dice for the Warlord, if, each "maneuver" is more like a spell.

For example, at Level 9, the Warlord can choose a "maneuver" whose effects are comparable to the effects of a slot 5 spell. At Level 17, the Warlord can choose a maneuver whose effects are comparable to the effects of Wish.

You mentioned in passing something like the above approach.

For me, ANY class that is unable to do things at the highest tiers, loses my interest. For example, I was very excited about the Artificer concept, but then nonplussed by it being a half-caster that appears defective at the highest tiers.

I expect any Warlord concept to be able to do incredible things at the highest tiers.

 

[Staffan]

I am unfamiliar with LaserLlama Warlord. (I have it now and will read it soon.)

I am commenting on your assessment that the following is overpowered:

Level 1: heavy weapon (d10), heavy armor, and 3x Healing Word

It should be noted that the 4e warlord had two Inspiring Words per encounter (three at some point). But on the other hand, the limit on Inspiring Word wasn't warlord-centric – it was the fact that the target got to spend a healing surge, and if they don't have any left they're SOL.

 

[Undrave]

This makes me question whether you have DMed in low level game.

Resistances and vulnerabilities are much more complex and common at low level than high level and it has nothing to do with magic weapons. Low level games are filled with monsters like Swarms, Skeletons, Shrubs, Oozes, Memphits, Vegypigmies etc.

Lots of low level campaign are against humanoids like goblins, kobolds, human bandits, maybe orcs and knolls if you're unlucky. It's not that unusual. Plus, extra weapons are a dime a dozen if you're worried.

Fighters are more difficult to play for newbies than casters. They have more choices and more importantly more bad choices.

No they're not. You just get the highest damage weapon and best AC possible it's not hard. And that's it, you just whack away. Want better armour? Or want to change weapon? Just use money it's cheap.

 

[cbwjm]

I quite like the Essence20 field commander from transformers RPG, think of them as the Megatron or Optimus Prime class, it's basic command is:

Issue Command
Many of your allies trust your commands more than their own instincts. As a Move action, you can issue a command, granting allies who follow your command 个1 to a Skill Test or +1 bonus to a Defense based on certain circumstances. You set the terms and the bonus allies receive. This bonus lasts until the beginning of your next turn.

Essentially other players have the option of following your command or not, deciding if they want the bonus.

It has some other cool abilities later on like being able to make an attack against a target if an ally missed them, and issuing a command for two things allowing multiple bonuses if they are both followed.

I like the strategist subclass, you can set up contingency actions, similar to readying an attack but it might allow you to move to cover or something instead of an attack.

Since Essence20 is based on 5e, I don't think it would take much to convert over.