D&D 5E Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)

FATE as a system wasn't designed on the Forge... it was first published in 2003

Because it's the basis of your entire, IMO flawed, argument concerning what type of game FATE is...

And this entire argument revolves round your misunderstanding of The Forge. Your equating of The Forge to Ron Edwards rather than to its purpose as an incubator.

If you look at what The Forge was
About the Forge
This site is dedicated to the promotion, creation, and review of independent role-playing games. What is an independent role-playing game? Our main criterion is that the game is owned by its author, or creator-owned. We don't care what its physical format is - it can be:

  • a book in the game store​
  • a PDF or HTML download from the Internet​
  • a direct mail-order only​
  • or anything else that is readily available​
The Forge is not only a place for role-playing game authors, though. It's here for anyone interested in discovering new games, having better role-playing experiences, or discussing role-playing game theory.

The Forge contains the following resources and materials:

Ron Edwards (IMO flawed) essays in game design were resources to help people analyse games and were intended as a resource to help people create and produce role-playing games. Evil Hat used The Forge to help them create and produce role-playing games. Creator owned games at that. They were using The Forge for its purpose. (And its presence there dates back to 2003)
 

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For a brand new game? Maybe so. But for a new edition of an already existing game? Not necessarily. It depends on what the changes in balance costs the game - and it will cost something. The changes in structure 4e brought may have brought a particular kind of balance you favored, but it basically made it a different game as well. And it wasn't a game I (and a lot of other people) wanted to play as D&D.

Everything has a cost. I really don't think it is worth rehashing these debates, but I will say prior to the release of 4E, I was very much in the camp of the game needs more balance. I felt 3E had too many loopholes and problems in that respect. But even though I supported balance, I found that, for me, 4E simply went too far in the direction of parity and balance. This isn't to say others should feel how I did about that system. Just to point out, one can be neutral or in favor of balance and still see it as a problem if it is too heavily implemented. Balance has a cost, just like realism and simplicity of play have costs. I find,these days, I favor a "balanced" approach to these elements.
 

Imaro

Legend
And this entire argument revolves round your misunderstanding of The Forge. Your equating of The Forge to Ron Edwards rather than to its purpose as an incubator.

If you look at what The Forge was
About the Forge
This site is dedicated to the promotion, creation, and review of independent role-playing games. What is an independent role-playing game? Our main criterion is that the game is owned by its author, or creator-owned. We don't care what its physical format is - it can be:

  • a book in the game store​
  • a PDF or HTML download from the Internet​
  • a direct mail-order only​
  • or anything else that is readily available​
The Forge is not only a place for role-playing game authors, though. It's here for anyone interested in discovering new games, having better role-playing experiences, or discussing role-playing game theory.

The Forge contains the following resources and materials:

Ron Edwards (IMO flawed) essays in game design were resources to help people analyse games and were intended as a resource to help people create and produce role-playing games. Evil Hat used The Forge to help them create and produce role-playing games. Creator owned games at that. They were using The Forge for its purpose. (And its presence there dates back to 2003)

No this entire argument seems to be revolving around you making the definition of "Forge Game" so broad that it doesn't really mean anything when we use your definition... I see a description for an indie game... show me the description for a Forge game.
 
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And this entire argument revolves round your misunderstanding of The Forge. Your equating of The Forge to Ron Edwards rather than to its purpose as an incubator.

If you look at what The Forge was
About the Forge
This site is dedicated to the promotion, creation, and review of independent role-playing games. What is an independent role-playing game? Our main criterion is that the game is owned by its author, or creator-owned. We don't care what its physical format is - it can be:

  • a book in the game store​
  • a PDF or HTML download from the Internet​
  • a direct mail-order only​
  • or anything else that is readily available​
The Forge is not only a place for role-playing game authors, though. It's here for anyone interested in discovering new games, having better role-playing experiences, or discussing role-playing game theory.

The Forge contains the following resources and materials:

Ron Edwards (IMO flawed) essays in game design were resources to help people analyse games and were intended as a resource to help people create and produce role-playing games. Evil Hat used The Forge to help them create and produce role-playing games. Creator owned games at that. They were using The Forge for its purpose. (And its presence there dates back to 2003)

I think when most people say The Forge, they don't mean indie rpg, they mean GNS or games developed by the forge membership that reflect values associated with the forge and its GNS model.
 

No this entire argument seems to be revolving around you making the definition of "Forge Game" so broad that it doesn't really mean anything when we use your definition...

Forge Game: A game that was incubated with the resources the Forge provided - or from a publisher the Forge incubated. Lumpley, Bully Pulpit, Evil Hat, Burning Wheel being the main four successful-ish companies at the moment. (And I doubt there will be more).

That's a clear and meaningful definition and the one I've been using all along.
 

Imaro

Legend
Forge Game: A game that was incubated with the resources the Forge provided - or from a publisher the Forge incubated. Lumpley, Bully Pulpit, Evil Hat, Burning Wheel being the main four successful-ish companies at the moment. (And I doubt there will be more).

That's a clear and meaningful definition and the one I've been using all along.

It's a definition you made up and, like [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION] said not the definition most people are using in this discussion or outside of it. What exactly does incubating a game or publisher entail? FATE was incubated on the Yahoo groups dedicated to it... how does that fit into your definition?
 

It's a definition you made up and, like @Bedrockgames said not the definition most people are using in this discussion or outside of it. What exactly does incubating a game or publisher entail? FATE was incubated on the Yahoo groups dedicated to it... how does that fit into your definition?

OK. Let's recap this conversation.

It started off by Mistwell claiming that the Forge had sunk without trace (and inviting us to discuss things of all places on The RPG Site).

I pointed out that the Forge had closed - after doing what it intended to involving awesome games including Fate, Dogs in the Vineyard, and Burning Wheel. As such the Forge was a spectacular success. And for the purpose of what was produced the Forge's goal was to produce independent games and publishers of independent games. Lumpley, Burning Wheel, and Bully Pulpit came straight out of The Forge, and Evil Hat and their games came via The Forge. All for the purposes of this discussion are Forge games even if Burning Wheel is not much like what you'd expect a stereotypical game from The Forge to be like

You seem to want to pedant this discussion to be about what games used the IMO deeply flawed Forge theory rather than what came out of The Forge in line with the intent of the Forge itself. And if we are talking about The Forge's effect then looking at the games it has affected in line with its intent is absolutely the right way of treating it.
 

Imaro

Legend
OK. Let's recap this conversation.

It started off by Mistwell claiming that the Forge had sunk without trace (and inviting us to discuss things of all places on The RPG Site).

I pointed out that the Forge had closed - after doing what it intended to involving awesome games including Fate, Dogs in the Vineyard, and Burning Wheel. As such the Forge was a spectacular success. And for the purpose of what was produced the Forge's goal was to produce independent games and publishers of independent games. Lumpley, Burning Wheel, and Bully Pulpit came straight out of The Forge, and Evil Hat and their games came via The Forge. All for the purposes of this discussion are Forge games even if Burning Wheel is not much like what you'd expect a stereotypical game from The Forge to be like

You seem to want to pedant this discussion to be about what games used the IMO deeply flawed Forge theory rather than what came out of The Forge in line with the intent of the Forge itself. And if we are talking about The Forge's effect then looking at the games it has affected in line with its intent is absolutely the right way of treating it.

We were talking about the ideologies of the Forge and you jumped in with a broad statement concerning "Forge games". Well if everyone else in the conversation has been discussing the Forge to mean GNS, Edwards ideologies, and their effects on games in the hobby... then you jump in with a statement about "Forge games", but with a totally different meaning for it than almost everyone else... it would seem you're the one who is being unclear and overly pedantic by ignoring reference to the context of the larger conversation that was taking place and persisting even after numerous people have tried to tell you how "Forge games" was being used in this exchange and even by most people in general before you created your own definition for it... but of course you didn't listen then and you won't listen now so how's about we agree to disagree at this point... I'm actually tired of going back and forth with you.
 

There's no way my players would stand for that. After all, how do you know which squares are threatened? How can you place yourselves in a way that prevents the enemies from running past you without provoking opportunity attacks? How do you know if you hit 3 or 4 orcs with that burning hands? Ask the DM?

Yes .. like this "Can I make an OOP?" "Can I stop this attack?" "Can I stop that movement?" "How many orcs can I hit with my burning hands?"

What if they screw you out of one of your free attacks by forgetting the exact location of all the enemies and PCs? What if you say "I'm moving beside the barrel" and the DM assumes the wrong side of the barrel?
accidents happen you just keep going...

The rules clearly stated which squares people had to be in to be threatened and where they could move to without provoking. These things were important to my players. Failing to follow the rules precisely could mean life or death if an extra enemy could be included in an AOE or an opportunity attack could take place.
we mostly just played and trusted eachother...

Minis were needed for these situations to make everything fair.
even in 4e we run some battles without them... and it is much more mini heavy...

One of our DMs used to just say "Anyone higher than <the highest initiative rolled by an enemy>?" Until someone pointed out that knowing the highest initiative of the enemies could give the players an unfair advantage since they'd know how many of them get to act before the enemies do and change their tactics accordingly. This resulted in the "DM writes down everyone's initiative and calls them in order" method.

we never saw that problem...
I'm not entirely sure how they survived that. Though, CR being a really poor judge of difficulty, I can understand some of this being possible. However, it was my experience that using an encounter with EL more than 5 above the Average Party Level was instant death for all but the most min-maxed group.

I once saw a set of 9th level PCs down a CR 24 dragon with 1 spell...


Have the time we had to because of all the bonuses that were temporary. We didn't necessarily say them out loud but we certainly spent the time to calculate them.
we just add them and go...



It definitely sounds like you play entirely different games that I do or were written for Living Forgotten Realms or Living Greyhawk before it.

you know, that is normally something I disagree with, but for once I can honestly say "We play VERY different games"
 

innerdude

Legend
As I understand GNS theory, Gamism is why you play. It's an "aesthetic priority". Exploration (the shared imagining of characters, setting, situation, system, and colour) is that "something else".

If you swap out Gamism for "aesthetic priority", you can see that it doesn't make sense: "But an RPG only works as an RPG at all when there's something offered besides pure aesthetic priority."

It's been over two years since I really sat down and thoroughly went through Ron Edwards' GNS essays, but I don't recall that particular verbiage. If you have some supporting evidence that suggests it's valid in this context, I'd love to see it; otherwise, as it is "aesthetic priority" is too nebulous in this context to provide any real meaning here.

However, here is Ron Edwards' definition of gamism in his own words:


  • Gamism is expressed by competition among participants (the real people); it includes victory and loss conditions for characters, both short-term and long-term, that reflect on the people's actual play strategies. The listed elements provide an arena for the competition.

In this sense, an RPG with nothing but gamist rules structures is nothing more than "an arena for competition." Taken to its absolute extreme, gamism removes "narrative" and "story" from the equation entirely, and inhabits its own self-contained competitive space, with victory and loss conditions that reflect actual play strategy.

Sure, Edwards recognizes that there are both short- and long-term "win and loss" conditions----but unless the players and group ascribe some kind of narrative form, element, or substance to those conditions, they cease to exist beyond any single "step on up" encounter. Gamism in an RPG only achieves meaning in the fiction when it is necessarily attached to some kind of narrative structure---"We did this, and as a consequence this happened, and as such, we are now faced with challenges X, Y, and Z." Now, in some instances, a GM may only care about X, Y, and Z as situational variables to set up the next gamist encounter, to provide "flavor" for the next "step on up." But even in as minimal fashion as that, a gamist agenda still relies upon something besides pure gamism to create the "shared fiction" and flow of events happening in an RPG.

Again, don't get me wrong----I am absolutely not opposed to gamism. I am a die-hard Eurogamer. I absolutely love Dominion, Lord of the Rings Living Card Game, 7 Wonders, et. al. What I'm saying is that an RPG that radically, massively, and unabashedly makes gamism the primary focus of its playstyle agenda will RIGHT NOW, TODAY have a hard time differentiating itself from other gamist pursuits WITHOUT a very strong, coherent narrative / story component to back it up. The Legend of Drizzt board games have a more than superficial resemblance to the core 4e mechanics----but it's not an RPG any more than Dominion is.

Now, the flip side to this, is that narrativism without a rules structure literally is "a bunch of people sitting around a campfire telling stories." There's no interactive "space" for dramatic resolution other than simply everyone agreeing, "Yeah, that's what really happened." The game in an RPG is important. I'm merely saying that an RPG in our current social, technological, and entertainment climate is going to have a dramatically harder time differentiating itself as a gamist pursuit. In other words, when WotC made 4e, they attached the cart to the wrong horse. They thought an emphasis on encounter-level gamism was going to build their audience, when in fact, RPGs are now differentiated from other gamist pursuits by their narrative elements.
 

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