D&D 5E Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)

In this case, it's not cooperative. As much as we share world building, someone needs to have the final word about what is and what isn't allowed into the game.

Someone does even in games like Fate. They just don't have the only word as they do in games like D&D.

"Come and get it" is, indeed, the poster-child to this discussion, but only because it rewrites the fiction in the most absurd ways. In fact, the majority of the martial encounter and daily powers will have players asking the definitive AEDU question: shouldn't I be able to do that more often?

The first answer is complicated: no, you cannot do it because you tap into reserves of inner endurance to do that. It's complicated because that same character will tap into those same reserves to use other powers, so they're probably far away from being depleted.

I don't see this as that complicated tbh. That a 50 yard sprint drains your legs much more than your arms, and a set of bicep curls does the reverse. AEDU is a fudge - but not a terrible one (and head and shoulders above most RPGs this way). It's not a perfect model, and doesn't try to be. It's just both simple and better than nothing.

I've found that thinking about ways to make failure interesting and relevant improves my experience more than assuring basic general competence for characters.

Basic general competence is a genre thing. Fail forward is good general advice. There is no conflict.

I fail to see how this improve a story game. Can you develop on this?

If I had a clear definition of a story game, possibly. For the record I post at Story-games.com, ran Dungeon World for a few months last year, am currently in a Monsterhearts campaign, wrote most of the Wikipedia entries on Fiasco and Grey Ranks (and need to re-write them) and all the *World entries, backed the Torchbearer, Fate Core, and TBZ kickstarters (as well as DW), and only just missed playing A Flower for Mara last night due to not feeling up to it - I know the field fairly well. My tentative definition of a story game is a game that absolutely minimises rules that don't have a direct impact on play in ways that are narratively distinguishable when you stop looking at rules and numbers.

They certainly improve shared visualisation and understanding of the world. This means they improve shared fiction - and they also improve player empowerment by enabling things to be reflected in the mechanics and fiction and enable teamwork.

While I was talking specifically about the matter of player empowerment, I see your point. I agree that 4E creates those moments, but I believe it's an artificial construct of its own rules. I mean, it's only this way because of encounter powers and healing surges. In fact, the players want a break, not the characters. A fighter who spends all his encounters and dailies but who can still keep swinging his sword all day long with only at-wills is really tired? How is he different from a 3E fighter?

Because the 3E fighter is at peak performance. The 4e fighter is pacing themself by using their simplest and most basic techniques, and knows that if they can have time catch their breath they will do better. The 4e fighter is tired rather than falling over and throwing up exhausted.

In other games with the same general construction, characters don't stop to catch their breath because there's nothing to gain from it.

A definite problem with games other than 4e. Endurance matters. 4e is, as is normal in my experience, a much better simulation of the genre, and of real life than most RPGs (and especially than other D&Ds) - and produces much better narrative results because of it.

On this regard, Torchbearer does it better, in my opinion, because characters don't stop to regain useful resources, they stop as a matter of life and death. It's the rules, not the players, telling the characters at which point they're too tired, hungry, thirsty or injured to go on.

In 4e it's the rules telling the characters when they are tired enough that they need a five minute break. It's also the rules, not the players, telling the characters the point at which they are too battered to go on and are about to collapse (run out of healing surges). Yes, Torchbearer is grittier than 4e. But if the point was about the rules saying "You need to rest because..." those rules are in 4e - it just doesn't go to the same level of detail.

We'll agree to disagree in that matter. While 4E does a lot of things better than DW, I don't believe any of those things is related to be played as a story game.

Other than establishing relevant parts of the narrative, dealing with a subset of character motivations (resting and endurance), and a couple of other things iincluding the advantages of the skill challenge for complex plans I'll agree.
 

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Exactly what genre are we speaking to with this claim?

There isn't anything wrong with fail forward but I share this thought. It is a tool that isn't for everyone and isn't going to be suitable to every genre. I tend not to enjoy the fail forward concept as much as some other players. So I think you need to know who your players are and you also need to make sure it fits the concept of the game as well.

Again this isn't a knock against fail forward. This is something you need to keep in mind for most GM advice. What works for some players won't work for others.
 

Again - it's a perfectly functional and good way to play RPGs. But not the only one.
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Immersion is a very specific and limited agenda in roleplaying for a few reasons. Firstly, it requires the engagement and cooperation of all present; players who do not "play the game" are "disruptive" and GMs that don't take all the extraneous stuff off the players are "poor GMs". The style necessarily requires a good deal of GM control and empathy in equal measure - and the GM also has to handle all or most of the "system stuff", too, often leading to headaches or similar after long sessions of play.
I don't particularly disagree with any of that, except the "specific and limited" part. Any character can be played in this fashion, and any event can occur. I see no limits other than the processing power of the DM's brain. But no one ever said it was easy.

Now, is some other paradigm of gaming any easier, that's a question.

I can't say I've ever found shared narrative control easy, largely because of confusion and conflicting goals and roles. However, since I did not learn that way, I certainly allow the possibility that I am simply not very skilled at it.

There are, indeed, better games for a number of varieties of such play. But then, there are also better games for waking dream/immersive play, too. I wouldn't characterise either of these "types" of play as monolithic, however. There are varieties and also different nuances in both "player engaged on metagame level" and "player engaged purely on gameworld level" types of play.
Which to me is a problem. I don't characterize such fundamental divides as playstyle differences. They're really different games. To me, D&D or any other rpg has to have clear roles for the participants.

Thankfully 3e does that, and as a first generation gamer, I largely follow the books on this subject. That is, I learned Rule Zero by picking up a book and reading it. I don't think anyone who has the 3e books and can read could draw any other conclusion about this paradigm, and how it informs the entire system. Do other games, including other versions of D&D, specify differently, or not at all? Yes. If someone else wants to analyze that social contract that informs other versions of D&D, they are welcome to.

To my mind, building a game that supports a different role for the players (and whatever DM/GM/etc. is posited, if any) is fine, but requires a page 1 rewrite. Since 3e was built explicitly with the assumptions of a strict player/character bond and an omnipotent and interventionist DM, it seems that when people try to play it with a different social contract it sometimes does not work well. This could lead to lengthy discussions about how "balanced" the game is, but I think that's missing the point.

As I mentioned above, I think this is because you are using a mechanically heavy system to run a waking dream/immersive experience for the players. If you are unhappy with the state of affairs (and I understand you may not be) I suggest using a lighter system or moving away from a strong emphasis on immersion to some other flavour of character identification.
Well, there is a reason why I'm running CoC right now. But it is CoC d20, and thus is in some sense part of the 3e family. 3e, as constituted, has a lot of unncessary baggage. Since most of us started with 2e, there is a nostalgia factor that keeps us engaged in things like classes and spells. Frankly, I'm beginning to look at this as a collective character flaw among my group (and probably not just my group).

To me, 5e ought to be exactly what I'm talking about, something fundamentally simpler and more generic.

The aim of "producing a good emergent story" is actually at odds with immersionism. Trying to hit both targets at once is making a rod for your own back. In a sense, story generating games are a bit like particle physics experiments; you smash some character needs together and see what interesting particles emerge from the collision. Nobody controls or dictates what will result from the collision, as such - they just set the parameters for the colliding characters, drive them up to high velocity and see what happens!
I don't see how any of this is at odds with immersion. In fact, I find that as a DM, focusing more in in-world phenomena and less on metagame agendas is very helpful to producing a naturalistic and emergent flow of events.

It does, though, bring up the necessity that results that you really DON'T want should be made impossible by the rules. In other words, rules quality(1) and balance become important.

(1): Edit to be clear: I don't mean "quality" in the sense of "good/bad", here - I mean that the structure and the detail of the rules - what qualities the rules have - matters, simply because you are not intending to depart from them for any reason.
Well, that's the box I was talking about. For example, all the talk of legislating in or out Save or Dies or other forms of quick and random high-lethality mechanics. It may be that some people really don't want these things and that there are very meaningful problems that can arise from their application, but legislating them out of the game removes reams of possibilities and completely changes the tactics. There are cases where getting what you want is not a good thing.

And indeed, that's part of getting emergent events. It's not only the DM that decides whether the character lives or dies, or even the player. It's the dice. That's pretty scary, but it is emergent.

I don't see how it can be "legislated into (your) campaign". Just strip out the bits that you dislike. Run 4E with several fighter powers disallowed. Make oozes immune to being thrown prone, undead and constructs immune to striker bonus damage (or just Sneak Attack). If the balance doesn't exist in the system to begin with, however, putting it in takes far more work than it will ever be worth.
If I stripped out the bits that I disliked, there wouldn't be a game left, honestly.

Having said this, the easiest route for either way is to pick a system better suited to what you want to do. You can even port D&D worlds and monsters into it, as I did with DragonQuest, way back when.
To me, it's been a learning curve over the years with 3.5 revisionism. If I were starting again from scratch, I might start something else. But is there another system out there that's not only better for me than what I have right now but by enough to be worth making the transition? I'm skeptical of that.

I would have hoped for 5e to be exactly that (and indeed I hoped for 4e to be that before its release), but I haven't seen my hopes fulfilled thus far.

If waking dream/immersion happens to be the way the players want to play - of course! But if they want something else then "DM totalitarianism" can be at least as dysfunctional*.
If. yes.

In a similar vein, I think that "balance" can be oddly beneficial for a simulative, immerion-focussed game. The "real" world has a certain "balance". If it was as easy to become a CEO as it is to become a janitor, there would be very many more CEOs in the world, I would wager! It would actually make sense to demand, for instance, that Wizards and Clerics have much higher attribute requirements than Fighters or Rogues. Early D&D actually made an attempt to be balanced in this way; attribute rolls were random, and only those with very good rolls could get the "powerful" classes (such as paladin or monk).
That's probably the best argument for balance that I've heard. Darwinism. People will naturally do the best things that they can do, and the ones that get the best results will keep doing it. If there was a type of magic that only ever produced cantrip-level effects, no one would learn it, because it would be a waste of time. So it follows the magic that does exist must be worth the effort and opportunity cost for at least some people.

I'm on board with that. I don't see people talking about balance much in practical terms like that though.

If you look at how 3e handles class balance, it makes perfect sense on the naturalistic level.

In the real world, everything has its own value and the "system" of reality finds its own balance where cost and benefit come together (on the whole). That a game world might represent such a "dynamic equilibrium" is to be expected, not some sort of oddity.
To me, that's happened in the D&D world we've been collectively imagining for the past few decades as well.
 

Well, linear doesn't mean railroad. But I hope it's bothersome. It bothers me.

If you cannot change the route or the destination, that's a railroad, at least in my judgment. In fact, that's the very definition of a railroad.

Whenever I read complaints about player entitlement, that's not what I see the problem as. The problem I see is one of DM entitlement. That the DM thinks that their setting should be theirs and inviolate, and that roleplaying isn't a team game with them as a member of the team. And that the DM doesn't believe that the input of additional people into their setting will, or even can make it more awesome (in my experience it almost always does).

How does "I'm level x so I must have a +y weapon and +z armor!" contribute to the setting? When I hear about player entitlement, it's usually someone complaining that their pc has been denied "fair" loot, got into an "unfair" encounter, etc. It's rarely that his or her setting idea has been rejected.

But you know what? If a player wants to be from the country of Skalinstad and there is no such country on the map, he's not contributing to the setting; he's trying to rewrite it.

Different groups feel differently about these things, of course, but to me, it is my setting. No other DM is entitled to run games in my world. Nobody, no matter how much they've played in my game, gets to decide what the political scene is like in a given nation- nobody except me. It IS my setting. I wrote it; I drew the maps. If a player wants to contribute to it, he or she can certainly pitch ideas or help develop/flesh out things with my approval, but he or she can absolutely not expect me to integrate everything he or she wants to create into my game. For one thing, there are almost always things that players don't know that affect the stuff they are working on, and I'm not inclined to rewrite deep setting elements to appease the whim of a player.

It's not the player who's entitled for thinking that their contribution should be valued. It's the DM who's entitled for thinking that only their contribution to the setting should be valued.

Is it?

I have written literally thousands of pages of material for my campaign over the years. I have shelves of binders full of stuff. There's an internal consistency that runs far deeper than anything any player can possibly realize, because so much of it is based on assumptions that aren't obvious on the surface.

It depends on what you mean by contributions, of course. The way for a player to contribute to the setting is in game. He wants a nation of Skalinstad? Well, go found one- in game, as part of the campaign.

N.B. It's possible that you mean something entirely different than I do by "player entitlement". I've only been skimming this (gigantic) thread.
 

If you cannot change the route or the destination, that's a railroad, at least in my judgment. In fact, that's the very definition of a railroad.
I can see why you would say that, but I don't think that's sufficient for a definition of railroading. I think railroading implies a metagame restriction of choice by the DM.

For example, if a player wants to have his armor smithed by a dwarf and he is in an elven tree city, and the DM tells him he cannot find what he wants and has to find another smith or go somewhere else, that is not railroading. Conversely, if the PC is in a cosmopolitan city and wants a dwarven smith, but the DM has prepared a special human smith and tells the player all the dwarves refuse to talk to him, that might be railroading.

If the bounds of the players' choices are clear in the game world, even if those bounds are established by the DM (hint: they are), I don't think that's railroading.
 

I can see why you would say that, but I don't think that's sufficient for a definition of railroading. I think railroading implies a metagame restriction of choice by the DM.

For example, if a player wants to have his armor smithed by a dwarf and he is in an elven tree city, and the DM tells him he cannot find what he wants and has to find another smith or go somewhere else, that is not railroading. Conversely, if the PC is in a cosmopolitan city and wants a dwarven smith, but the DM has prepared a special human smith and tells the player all the dwarves refuse to talk to him, that might be railroading.

If the bounds of the players' choices are clear in the game world, even if those bounds are established by the DM (hint: they are), I don't think that's railroading.

That's a fair point. But if the entire adventure or campaign automatically starts at point A and ends at point B, regardless of what the pcs do, that is railroading- any agency that they appear to have is illusory.
 

That's a fair point. But if the entire adventure or campaign automatically starts at point A and ends at point B, regardless of what the pcs do, that is railroading- any agency that they appear to have is illusory.
I don't think that's fair. It assumes that everything that happens between A and B is unimportant. If the DM instead decides that the campaign will start at A and end at Z and all the other letters in between are up for grabs, that's a very different proposition.

Which on some level, is life. You're born and you die, and the only part you have even partial influence over is the part in between.

I also think that the polar opposite of railroading, the pure sandbox game, is quite a difficult proposition. Most people aren't going to think of anything that isn't a sandbox as a railroad; it's a spectrum rather than a dichotomy.
 

I don't think that's fair. It assumes that everything that happens between A and B is unimportant. If the DM instead decides that the campaign will start at A and end at Z and all the other letters in between are up for grabs, that's a very different proposition.

Which on some level, is life. You're born and you die, and the only part you have even partial influence over is the part in between.

I also think that the polar opposite of railroading, the pure sandbox game, is quite a difficult proposition. Most people aren't going to think of anything that isn't a sandbox as a railroad; it's a spectrum rather than a dichotomy.

Some players get from A to B and then tell the DM "We look around for C". And if the DM says "You could C, D, E, F, or something else you thought of yourself" they argue with the other players until they aren't having fun.

This is the cross I frequently bear.
 

That's a fair point. But if the entire adventure or campaign automatically starts at point A and ends at point B, regardless of what the pcs do, that is railroading- any agency that they appear to have is illusory.

My definition of Railroad isn't that the GM has a linear adventure planned, it is that he artificially forces the players to stay on the linear adventure path he has created. So it might be possible for the dice, natural circumstances, etc to lead along that path, and I wouldn't call it railroading (though I might be critical of the structure all the same). But if the players made an honest attempt to go off the path and he kept throwing obstructions their way, then to me that is when it becomes classic railroading.
 

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