Neonchameleon
Legend
In this case, it's not cooperative. As much as we share world building, someone needs to have the final word about what is and what isn't allowed into the game.
Someone does even in games like Fate. They just don't have the only word as they do in games like D&D.
"Come and get it" is, indeed, the poster-child to this discussion, but only because it rewrites the fiction in the most absurd ways. In fact, the majority of the martial encounter and daily powers will have players asking the definitive AEDU question: shouldn't I be able to do that more often?
The first answer is complicated: no, you cannot do it because you tap into reserves of inner endurance to do that. It's complicated because that same character will tap into those same reserves to use other powers, so they're probably far away from being depleted.
I don't see this as that complicated tbh. That a 50 yard sprint drains your legs much more than your arms, and a set of bicep curls does the reverse. AEDU is a fudge - but not a terrible one (and head and shoulders above most RPGs this way). It's not a perfect model, and doesn't try to be. It's just both simple and better than nothing.
I've found that thinking about ways to make failure interesting and relevant improves my experience more than assuring basic general competence for characters.
Basic general competence is a genre thing. Fail forward is good general advice. There is no conflict.
I fail to see how this improve a story game. Can you develop on this?
If I had a clear definition of a story game, possibly. For the record I post at Story-games.com, ran Dungeon World for a few months last year, am currently in a Monsterhearts campaign, wrote most of the Wikipedia entries on Fiasco and Grey Ranks (and need to re-write them) and all the *World entries, backed the Torchbearer, Fate Core, and TBZ kickstarters (as well as DW), and only just missed playing A Flower for Mara last night due to not feeling up to it - I know the field fairly well. My tentative definition of a story game is a game that absolutely minimises rules that don't have a direct impact on play in ways that are narratively distinguishable when you stop looking at rules and numbers.
They certainly improve shared visualisation and understanding of the world. This means they improve shared fiction - and they also improve player empowerment by enabling things to be reflected in the mechanics and fiction and enable teamwork.
While I was talking specifically about the matter of player empowerment, I see your point. I agree that 4E creates those moments, but I believe it's an artificial construct of its own rules. I mean, it's only this way because of encounter powers and healing surges. In fact, the players want a break, not the characters. A fighter who spends all his encounters and dailies but who can still keep swinging his sword all day long with only at-wills is really tired? How is he different from a 3E fighter?
Because the 3E fighter is at peak performance. The 4e fighter is pacing themself by using their simplest and most basic techniques, and knows that if they can have time catch their breath they will do better. The 4e fighter is tired rather than falling over and throwing up exhausted.
In other games with the same general construction, characters don't stop to catch their breath because there's nothing to gain from it.
A definite problem with games other than 4e. Endurance matters. 4e is, as is normal in my experience, a much better simulation of the genre, and of real life than most RPGs (and especially than other D&Ds) - and produces much better narrative results because of it.
On this regard, Torchbearer does it better, in my opinion, because characters don't stop to regain useful resources, they stop as a matter of life and death. It's the rules, not the players, telling the characters at which point they're too tired, hungry, thirsty or injured to go on.
In 4e it's the rules telling the characters when they are tired enough that they need a five minute break. It's also the rules, not the players, telling the characters the point at which they are too battered to go on and are about to collapse (run out of healing surges). Yes, Torchbearer is grittier than 4e. But if the point was about the rules saying "You need to rest because..." those rules are in 4e - it just doesn't go to the same level of detail.
We'll agree to disagree in that matter. While 4E does a lot of things better than DW, I don't believe any of those things is related to be played as a story game.
Other than establishing relevant parts of the narrative, dealing with a subset of character motivations (resting and endurance), and a couple of other things iincluding the advantages of the skill challenge for complex plans I'll agree.