Why's it so hard to create a character generator that rocks?

[Davin]

Does anyone have the new, Code Monkey Publishing version of E-Tools?

Which "new" version are you asking about? The 1.5 release? That's not out quite yet (it's going through the official approval process at the moment).

 

[Silveras]

I see most of the good reasons are already covered, but I'll add my observations on a couple:

Implementing just the Core Rules is too limiting, and trying to guess the variants coming is impossible.

Most games use at least one extra resource, and many also have some variety of house rule implemented. Even the Core Rules contain 30+ variant options you can choose to use.

Frequently, the new supplements include new rules. Not just new Feats or Prestige Classes that you can just add to a list, but whole new subsystems, some of which make variable what was a constant before. Trying to create a code system that has the flexibility to adjust to those is HARD.

Consider damage. Basically, there are Lethal and NonLethal damage types. But wait ... if you have Regeneration, you have to change Lethal to NonLethal... unless it came from Fire or Acid. Unless your race is immune to Fire and Acid but takes Lethal damage from Cold.

Consider spellcasting. Your Caster Level = your Class level, and that determines what level of spells you have, how many "slots", the chance to dispel it, and how potent it is (range, duration, dice, etc.). UNLESS you are using the Magical Effect Rating in Unearthed Arcana. Then your MER is potentially higher than your Class level (assuming you are multi-classed), and it applies to dispel checks and the potency of the spell; but your slots and highest level spells are still determined by your Class level.

Consider Armor Class. Basically 10 + Armor Bonus + Deflection Bonus + Dodge Bonus + Shield Bonus + Dex Modifier + Natural Armor Bonus + Sacred Bonus + Luck Bonus + Bonus Bonus ... ad nauseam. However, if you use the "Defensive Roll" variant in the DMG, your AC changes from round to round: 1d20 + Armor Bonus + etc.

 

[WingOver]

It just occurred to me that it's a lot easier and faster to design rules that are interpreted by humans than by software. (No duh, I know. ) But I was going to reply to your new subsystems point by saying the software can be updated to use any new variant rule. But the human mind can parse a few sentences and understand rule variants in a matter of seconds, but it takes weeks or months to update software to handle the same (unless it had an extremely flexible design), thereby limiting the usefulness of software.

Implementing just the Core Rules is too limiting

I don't agree with this point. I would happily use software that supported 100% of the SRD correctly. The core rules contain the majority of the D20 system after all. I could create a Lycanthrope Medusa Wizard villain with prepared spells adjusted for metamagic feats. That would make me very happy.

And if I could add other items (prestige classes, spells, feats, etc) that used rules supported by the SRD, this would go a long way toward supporting my campaign overall.

 

[Silveras]

It just occurred to me that it's a lot easier and faster to design rules that are interpreted by humans than by software. (No duh, I know. ) But I was going to reply to your new subsystems point by saying the software can be updated to use any new variant rule. But the human mind can parse a few sentences and understand rule variants in a matter of seconds, but it takes weeks or months to update software to handle the same (unless it had an extremely flexible design), thereby limiting the usefulness of software.

Exactly. Software requires time and effort to update, and those updates must be tested, debugged, and distributed.

Implementing just the Core Rules is too limiting

I don't agree with this point. I would happily use software that supported 100% of the SRD correctly. The core rules contain the majority of the D20 system after all. I could create a Lycanthrope Medusa Wizard villain with prepared spells adjusted for metamagic feats. That would make me very happy.

And if I could add other items (prestige classes, spells, feats, etc) that used rules supported by the SRD, this would go a long way toward supporting my campaign overall.

I should have stated what I meant more clearly. Supporting just the Core Rules is too limiting to have a viable commercial product (IMHO). A product that supports just the Core is fine for the section of the market that uses only the Core. However, the inability to implement house rules and/or other products rapidly generates frustration. Much depends, of course, on the nature of what you are doing as variants/house rules.

In your case, it sounds like you would be happy with a tool that implemented the Core Rules only.

Except... that Lycanthrope Medusa Wizard would only work as an advanced Monster under the Core Rules ... or as a (N)PC of 9th level or higher (6 Monster HD + LA 0 + 1 Wiz level + 2 {assuming afflicted Lycnathrope}).

We started talking about Character Generators. I fully admit that automating the application of templates to monsters is fairly easy, in comparison. Except you have to either write a little code for each template, or write a LOT of code to be able to read a template and pick out how to apply it.

I am currently writing an Access-based database application that applies templates to the "stock monster" entries. I am using the "a little code for each Template" method, because, again, I can't predict WHAT people will put into new templates. The Lycanthrope template is a good example.. since you can theoretically choose any animal, it is an "odd" Template in that it requires an additional piece of information: what the animal type is. Very few, if any, other Templates require any additional information; most are just "make these changes".

 

[andargor]

PCGen is seeking user feedback. With all the good input here, why don't you go and fill out the survey?

I have my own beefs with the program, but also things I like, so I filled it out.

From the pcgen Yahoo group:

Hello PCGen users.

I'm a User Experience professional who has expressed an interest in assisting with improving the user experience of the PCGen application. I plan to begin with several types of "expert analysis" of the application, looking at the existing user interface and task flow in order to uncover the areas where the existing user experience could be improved.

Some of the "expert analysis" methods require a little bit more than just the expert, however. Specifically, it is a good idea to obtain some feedback from real users about the application. This helps to develop goal and task based usage scenarios which can then be used to direct future investigations into the user experience.

I've put together a short web survey (a dozen or so questions) and I would really appreciate responses from anyone willing to spend the time to fill it in. You can find the survey at http://www.jamm.com/pcgen/.

Thanks,
Jenni A.M. Merrifield
--
Jenni A. M. Merrifield
Software User Experience Professional
Designing to Requirements and walking on Water is EASY. . .
. . . So long as both are Frozen.
----------
E-Mail & WinIM: [strawberry @ jamm.com]
Blog: [http://strawberryjamm.blogspot.com]
--

Andargor

 

[Glyfair]

Thanks for the reply, Frugal. So basically the reasons there isn't an uber-generator:

1. D20 rules are complex and extremely difficult to put into code.
2. It's a lot of work.
3. There is little motivation to overcome 1, 2 without getting paid.
4. Most of the programmers are gamers, without necessarily all the exact skills required.

I'm willing to bet that reason #1 is the primary reason, and that the 20% of nightmare rules are the cause.

Although this has been touched on, there is a good reason for the 20% of the nightmare rules. Probably almost no d20 game designer who creates something new thinks "will this be easy to fit into a computer program?" Things might be easy for a person to check (do I have 3 fire spells?), but might require significant programming changes to implement. A game designer isn't going to consider the programming changes, just whether the average gamer can use it.

I know there are a number of things in Unearthed Arcana that I looked at and realized that major programming would be needed to implement in something like E-Tools or PCGen. At least, if they were to work smoothly (for example, checking to make sure you took the appropriate "bloodline levels" and probably prompting you to remind you they are "due").

 

[Silveras]

Although this has been touched on, there is a good reason for the 20% of the nightmare rules. Probably almost no d20 game designer who creates something new thinks "will this be easy to fit into a computer program?" Things might be easy for a person to check (do I have 3 fire spells?), but might require significant programming changes to implement. A game designer isn't going to consider the programming changes, just whether the average gamer can use it.

I know there are a number of things in Unearthed Arcana that I looked at and realized that major programming would be needed to implement in something like E-Tools or PCGen. At least, if they were to work smoothly (for example, checking to make sure you took the appropriate "bloodline levels" and probably prompting you to remind you they are "due").

Exactly right.

Let me be clear, the Core of 3rd Edition is much streamlined over the Core of 1st or 2nd Edition, and it lends itself much more easily to being coded.

But D&D has always been a "game of exceptions". Everyone does this except this class. Everyone is like this except race A. The exceptions are what give the characters flavor, and the game designers are constantly looking for new "angles" to approach the standard rules with a feat, class, race, or spell that alters them.

 

[Spoot]

Exactly right.

Let me be clear, the Core of 3rd Edition is much streamlined over the Core of 1st or 2nd Edition, and it lends itself much more easily to being coded.

But D&D has always been a "game of exceptions". Everyone does this except this class. Everyone is like this except race A. The exceptions are what give the characters flavor, and the game designers are constantly looking for new "angles" to approach the standard rules with a feat, class, race, or spell that alters them.

Agreed 100,000%......exceptions are killers. Along with the massive ruleset. I'm currently working on a DMHelper program that's based on 2nd Ed AD&D and the exceptions are KILLING me. Not to mention the massive amount of data to be loaded. Currently the program clocks at 60,000 lines of C++ code and the sql dataset is at 80,000,000 bytes. That 80meg doesn't even include magic items yet. Yikes!

When you think about the massive calculations we do as players to great a character or even calculate AC in 2nd Ed.....it's kinda scary.

 

[WingOver]

When you think about the massive calculations we do as players to great a character or even calculate AC in 2nd Ed.....it's kinda scary.

As a DM that's why I want a character generator that can do everything. I spend so much time statting up mid-to-high level NPCs and advancing monsters. That's time better spent working on flavor material for the campaign and adventure.

The human brain is amazing. It can handle all those rules with no problems (barring ambiguous or contradictory rules). Now use that brain to develop software to do the same thing. Good luck with your program.

 

[Spoot]

As a DM that's why I want a character generator that can do everything. I spend so much time statting up mid-to-high level NPCs and advancing monsters. That's time better spent working on flavor material for the campaign and adventure.

Amen to that......which is why I started this project. Well, that and players who keep "losing" experience or treasure sheets. Or the ever famous, hand me xxx book to look up xxxx spell since I don't have it written on my sheet. Was driving me bonkers! So, I starting writing a program to track everything........not thinking about how much work tracking everything would be.

I've tried a ton of 2nd Ed generators/campaign helping tools, but I found all of them severly limited in some way. There appear to be some realitively nice ones for D20....but I don't play that.