Willow - Official Teaser Trailer

And yet she had to force herself on him after he rejected her by saying he had real feelings for Elora.

Now, Elora plays with the flute of the guy who actually did turn on the rest of the party earlier in the show. Apparently, that's forgivable but being held captive, drugged with weeks of worm juice, and magically brainwashed is held against Airik.

Not to mention that Airik's natural impulse was to try to save Kit (when she fell into the wormjuice lake) even when he was in the personal presence of the Crone.
Attraction to people who get by on superficial charm does tend to fade when the source of charm is removed. And love has nothing to do with "who is the better person".
 

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Argyle King

Legend
Attraction to people who get by on superficial charm does tend to fade when the source of charm is removed. And love has nothing to do with "who is the better person".

I agree that being a better person doesn't equal love.

My original comments were mainly 2 points of inquiry: 1) was the outcome of being "rescued" better for him and 2) in a show which has included social messaging, what message does it send to show that a young man tried to change his ways and tried to be better in the face of captivity and torture only to be rejected by those who "love" him?

Exploring that in a future season would be interesting. However, my guess is that it will be glossed over, in favor of highlighting other characters. So, with that being the case, the questions still linger.
 

1) was the outcome of being "rescued" better for him
I think not being a mind controlled puppet is quite obviously better!
2) in a show which has included social messaging, what message does it send to show that a young man tried to change his ways and tried to be better in the face of captivity and torture only to be rejected by those who "love" him?
We only have Kat's word for his previous behaviour, and the opinions of siblings are notoriously biased. It seems to me that he was in love with the process of falling in love, and once the initial excitement wore off tended to lose interest. So being dumped first may well be exactly the lesson he needed to learn.

And the show has much larger loose ends. Graydon seems to be set up as the antagonist in the next series. Did he really murder his brother as a child? Was he possessed? Is he multiclassed as a GOO warlock? His family name is Hastur, so it wouldn't surprise me*. And his kingdom has a decidedly shady history of slave ownership. Talking of which, what about Jade? We have her backstory, but it hasn't actually lead anywhere yet.



*If you check out the last names of the character's there is a lot nominative determinism going on in this show (another D&Dish feature). Willow Ufgood is good, Jade Claymore has green eyes and a big sword, Boorman is a boorish man, etc
 

We only have Kat's word for his previous behaviour, and the opinions of siblings are notoriously biased. It seems to me that he was in love with the process of falling in love, and once the initial excitement wore off tended to lose interest. So being dumped first may well be exactly the lesson he needed to learn.
That's what I took from it.
And the show has much larger loose ends. Graydon seems to be set up as the antagonist in the next series. Did he really murder his brother as a child? Was he possessed? Is he multiclassed as a GOO warlock? His family name is Hastur, so it wouldn't surprise me*. And his kingdom has a decidedly shady history of slave ownership. Talking of which, what about Jade? We have her backstory, but it hasn't actually lead anywhere yet.
Graydon has shown he's pretty astute and reasonably good at maintaining a deceptive front (neither of which makes him a bad person), so I'm not sure he's going to necessarily buy into Evil-Elora's whole deal, but at the same time, given she was backed by a horde of monsters, his sense of self-preservation may be enough that he plays along with her until he has a chance to backstab her or get away. Or he may start off doing that and then the fact that his friends seem to have abandoned him may cause him to become conflicted or whatever. I dunno if he's going to be the main antagonist though.

I strongly suspect he was possessed as a child and is possibly particularly vulnerable to being possessed again - quite likely his family has some kind of ongoing pact with some being that keeps them in power.

Jade's story presumably involves reconciling the Bonereapers with er... the castle-people. Honestly, from the scenario described it seems hard to entirely blame the castle-people though the show seemed to want us to, at least a bit, because there was no moment when the Bonereapers appeared to seek peace, just they were attacking, then they were fleeing after being defeated, and still appeared to be engaged in banditry and so on.
 

Argyle King

Legend
I think not being a mind controlled puppet is quite obviously better!


That depends on perspective.

He's had an entire childhood of being second place to his sister and falling into the role we saw him in at the beginning of the show -a role which was constructed for him by constantly being fed low expectations and the idea that was all he could be.

From another perspective, what we see is an attempt to evolve a character from the boyish foolishness of youth into a more responsible and competent man. Typically, that journey should be a good thing. In his case, going back to his family seems to have required reverting (at least partially) to a previous state. Additionally, those who "love" him risked life and limb to ensure that he returned to that state.

I do not believe that being with the Crone was better for him. At the same time, I'm not sure that being dragged to a gilded cage and forced back into being a version of who he was before growth is particularly heroic on the part of his rescuers.

They all have a story of success which relies upon him again being the helpless boy who needed saving.
 

That depends on perspective.
I can't think of any perspective where he would be better off as a mind slave!
He's had an entire childhood of being second place to his sister and falling into the role we saw him in at the beginning of the show -a role which was constructed for him by constantly being fed low expectations and the idea that was all he could be.
There is no evidence that he was anything other than what he chose to be. And unlike his sister, he was not being forced into a political marriage.
They all have a story of success which relies upon him again being the helpless boy who needed saving.
You are objecting to the reversal of traditional gender roles?

Your princess is in another castle.
 

Argyle King

Legend
I can't think of any perspective where he would be better off as a mind slave!

There is no evidence that he was anything other than what he chose to be. And unlike his sister, he was not being forced into a political marriage.

You are objecting to the reversal of traditional gender roles?

Your princess is in another castle.

I wouldn't even characterize it as a reversal of roles.

Even in the most cliche of old Disney movies, the princess/damsel was typically shown to have some semblance of competence and shown to have some manner of evolution into something better.

Aschenputtel maintains a household and is shown to be of a character which shines through her step-sisters' efforts; Ariel overcomes naivety to find confidence in herself and her own voice; etc; etc. There is some ability to overcome a challenge, bring something of value to their other half in "happily ever after," and/or an evolution into a better state.

In contrast, Airik gets barely any of that. All efforts to evolve from the boyish and indulgent f-boy prince saddled with low expectations into a competent man and partner end up going nowhere. He is "saved" by being put right back to where he started... in some ways worse than where he started.

To whom was he truly a "mind slave"?

The society which seeks to return him to a state of lesser value and lesser competence or the "evil" crone which intentionally sought him out because she saw value in him as something special and someone who had potential to be something greater?

Do I think the Crone was evil? Yeah, probably*, but I don't think it's necessarily that simple if looking at it from the perspective of Airik.

In a lot of ways, I imagine his journey home could be similar to when a lot of soldiers return home from combat and war. The country you leave isn't always the same one to which you come home.
 

saddled with low expectations
You evidently watched a different episode 1 to everyone else, since this is pretty much the opposite of his situation.
the princess/damsel was typically shown to have some semblance of competence
He tries to escape, and fails, but not through incompetence. He shows unusual determination. Anyone would have failed in that situation. There was no way out. And it wouldn't make for much of a quest if the object rescued himself. It would be like the One Ring rolling itself to Mount Doom. Holy Grail? I found it, it had rolled under the chair.
To whom was he truly a "mind slave"?
Err, the Worm? You did watch the show?
Ariel overcomes naivety to find confidence in herself and her own voice
She kills herself because the Prince doesn't love her. Try reading the book.
and partner
He was never in love with Alora Dannan. He was in love with "Dove". His imagined version of the person. Had he had time to get to know the real person before being whisked away he would have got bored and ended the relationship himself, as he had with all his previous relationships. He needed to learn the lesson of rejection before he could have any sort of healthy relationship with anyone.
 

Ryujin

Legend
In a lot of ways, I imagine his journey home could be similar to when a lot of soldiers return home from combat and war. The country you leave isn't always the same one to which you come home.
Most frequently that's seen as being because the soldier's/adventurer's viewpoint has changed as a result of what they've seen, rather than their home changing. An exception to that would be "The Scouring of the Shire" in "The Lord of the Rings", in which both the characters and the Shire have changed.

Airk will be returning to his original destiny, which will be to become the king. Kit's destiny was to become a political chess piece. Obviously that will have changed because the other pawn, Graydon, isn't quite on the same board anymore. Or maybe he will be?
 

Argyle King

Legend
1) You evidently watched a different episode 1 to everyone else, since this is pretty much the opposite of his situation.

2) He tries to escape, and fails, but not through incompetence. He shows unusual determination. Anyone would have failed in that situation. There was no way out. And it wouldn't make for much of a quest if the object rescued himself. It would be like the One Ring rolling itself to Mount Doom. Holy Grail? I found it, it had rolled under the chair.

3) Err, the Worm? You did watch the show?

4) She kills herself because the Prince doesn't love her. Try reading the book.

5) He was never in love with Alora Dannan. He was in love with "Dove". His imagined version of the person. Had he had time to get to know the real person before being whisked away he would have got bored and ended the relationship himself, as he had with all his previous relationships. He needed to learn the lesson of rejection before he could have any sort of healthy relationship with anyone.

1) Possibly. Though, it's hard to say because the show didn't seem to know which direction it was going for the first few episodes.

2) It's not just that one situation. As I said, even the typical Disney movie princess is shown to have some value. (See also #4)

3) I did. But that's missing the point of why I said what I said. Upthread, I mentioned that the Worm juice was used to help brainwash him. But that's also a very different thing than being fed a certain narrative and having it ingrained in you as "good" from a young age.

4) Yes, the book versions are different. Usually, those versions have deeper allegorical meaning. That would have some relevance to my comments about what the message accompanying the evolution of the character -or the failed attempt to evolve- says to an audience.

5) If that can be extrapolated from what has been said to be limited on-screen information, I would posit that the things I've brought forward are equally as valuable to weigh. In particular, he's shown to have some motivation to evolve beyond the boyish prince and become something more when given the opportunity. Why is he deemed less worthy of a happy ending than Jade, Kit, and Elora?

Again, I'm not saying that the Crone isn't evil (though the show does and also illustrates that Tir Asleen has a history of unfairly categorizing certain people as bad or evil, like the Bone Reavers). What I am saying is that I have questions about how the being "rescued" looks from Prince Airk's perspective. How will it look when he sees that Graydon now occupies a position which may have been his?
 

Argyle King

Legend
Most frequently that's seen as being because the soldier's/adventurer's viewpoint has changed as a result of what they've seen, rather than their home changing. An exception to that would be "The Scouring of the Shire" in "The Lord of the Rings", in which both the characters and the Shire have changed.

Airk will be returning to his original destiny, which will be to become the king. Kit's destiny was to become a political chess piece. Obviously that will have changed because the other pawn, Graydon, isn't quite on the same board anymore. Or maybe he will be?

I'm not sure that Airk ever would have been king. If Kit and Graydon were meant to join two kingdoms, that would have meant they would become king and queen. Airk would remain in a lesser role than Kit.

Regarding a soldiers viewpoint: I can somewhat agree with that. A change in viewpoint can mean seeing that what you were told was good/evil may not be how things actually are. Sometimes it also means realizing that the criteria you were given for how to evaluate others as being "bad" applies to those who instructed you to fight it.
 

I'm not sure that Airk ever would have been king.
He is the older sibling, and says in episode 6 that he is to be king. Of course, their status as royalty is rather dubious, since their mother is the daughter of a usurper, and their father a scoundrel. Technically, Elora Dannan is the rightful monarch, because magic.
If Kit and Graydon were meant to join two kingdoms, that would have meant they would become king and queen. Airk would remain in a lesser role than Kit.
Joining in a permanent alliance (see: EU), not a single kingdom. Airk would be king of Tir Asleen, Graydon would be king and head of state of Galladoorn, with Kat as his queen consort. Galladoorn appears to be a much larger more powerful kingdom, so Graydon would be the senior partner, with Airk number two. Kat gets to wave an open fetes.
 
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5) If that can be extrapolated from what has been said to be limited on-screen information, I would posit that the things I've brought forward are equally as valuable to weigh. In particular, he's shown to have some motivation to evolve beyond the boyish prince and become something more when given the opportunity. Why is he deemed less worthy of a happy ending than Jade, Kit, and Elora?
This seems like a ludicrous viewpoint. Not every character in every story is going to get the same sort of ending.

You seem to think this is some sort of competition, and Airk was very unfairly awarded a 8.7 by the judges instead of the 9.9 he deserved or something.

This is a story. Airk is a guy who has a lot to work out about himself. He was certainly not in love with Elora Danan. A child could tell you this from watching the show. He was in love with Dove. This is text, not subtext. Whereas the stuff you're insisting on is both bizarre and not even subtext, let alone text in many cases.

Joining in a permanent alliance (see: EU), not a single kingdom. Airk would be king of Tir Asleen, Graydon would be king and head of state of Galladoorn, with Kat as his queen consort. Galladoorn appears to be a much larger more powerful kingdom, so Graydon would be the senior partner, with Airk number two. Kat gets to wave an open fetes.
Exactly. It's like some people have never played Crusader Kings and married off their children for alliances!
 

Argyle King

Legend
He is the older sibling, and says in episode 6 that he is to be king. Of course, their status as royalty is rather dubious, since their mother is the daughter of a usurper, and their father a scoundrel. Technically, Elora Dannan is the rightful monarch, because magic.

Joining in a permanent alliance (see: EU), not a single kingdom. Airk would be king of Tir Asleen, Graydon would be king and head of state of Galladoorn, with Kat as his queen consort. Galladoorn appears to be a much larger more powerful kingdom, so Graydon would be the senior partner, with Airk number two. Kat gets to wave an open fetes.

Tir Asleen has historically followed a matriarchal line of succession.

I'll have to rewatch how the marriage proposal was worded. I had thought it was said that the two kingdoms would be joined as one.

This seems like a ludicrous viewpoint. Not every character in every story is going to get the same sort of ending.

You seem to think this is some sort of competition, and Airk was very unfairly awarded a 8.7 by the judges instead of the 9.9 he deserved or something.

This is a story. Airk is a guy who has a lot to work out about himself. He was certainly not in love with Elora Danan. A child could tell you this from watching the show. He was in love with Dove. This is text, not subtext. Whereas the stuff you're insisting on is both bizarre and not even subtext, let alone text in many cases.


Exactly. It's like some people have never played Crusader Kings and married off their children for alliances!

Sure, not every character does get a positive ending. That's true. Though, it is noticeable that one central character does not, while everybody else does. The suggestion that Airk should feel happy just because he is where other people have decided to return him to a state/place they feel he should be is a good illustration of why I questioned where (and to whom) he had been a mindslave.

Most likely, that's not an aspect that the show is intending to explore. But it is noticeable in a show which spends some time on social messaging on a Disney platform.

Competition? No, but Airk does potentially fill a character niche and role which appeals to a different subsection of the audience.

I completely agree that Airk has a lot to work out for himself. That's part of my point.
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
Overall.... The show was fine to good. None of it was as good as our other recent fantasy shows, not in our house anyway. I certainly would not suggest anyone subscribe to watch this. I'm not even sure I recommend watching it, but I wouldn't recommend not watching it either.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Overall.... The show was fine to good. None of it was as good as our other recent fantasy shows, not in our house anyway. I certainly would not suggest anyone subscribe to watch this. I'm not even sure I recommend watching it, but I wouldn't recommend not watching it either.

Yeah that's fairbits the weakest out of the recent fantasy shows.

Movie was better.
 

Tir Asleen has historically followed a matriarchal line of succession.
I don't know where you are getting that from. Airk is heir presumptive based on primogeniture - he is the older twin. It's all in episode 6 dialogue. Bavmorda was ruler through conquest and murder, not legal claim, and Sorcha became ruler as the de facto leader of the forces who overthrew Bavmorda (Madmartigan not being the sort of person you would put in charge of a flock of geese, never mind a kingdom).
 

Overall.... The show was fine to good. None of it was as good as our other recent fantasy shows, not in our house anyway. I certainly would not suggest anyone subscribe to watch this. I'm not even sure I recommend watching it, but I wouldn't recommend not watching it either.
Personally, I much preferred it to Grimdark stuff like The Witcher and Game of Thrones. I don't confuse misery for quality.

I also preferred it to the Wheel of Time adaptation, which, whilst less grimdark was confusing (at least for someone who hasn't read the books) and lacked likable characters.

But the best fantasy series I have seen recently is the BBC's His Dark Materials adaptation.
 

Argyle King

Legend
I don't know where you are getting that from. Airk is heir presumptive based on primogeniture - he is the older twin. It's all in episode 6 dialogue. Bavmorda was ruler through conquest and murder, not legal claim, and Sorcha became ruler as the de facto leader of the forces who overthrew Bavmorda (Madmartigan not being the sort of person you would put in charge of a flock of geese, never mind a kingdom).

If Airk was designated as next in line for succession, that certainly wasn't illustrated in his interactions with Sorcha contrasted with Sorcha's interactions with Kit.

While not necessarily the case throughout real-world history, I would like to believe that some general semblance of competence would play into choosing an heir.

Seems a bit odd to invest time into making sure Kit has skills associated with what is noble is supposed to be if the intent was to give the crown to someone else.
 

If Airk was designated as next in line for succession, that certainly wasn't illustrated in his interactions with Sorcha contrasted with Sorcha's interactions with Kit.

While not necessarily the case throughout real-world history, I would like to believe that some general semblance of competence would play into choosing an heir.

Seems a bit odd to invest time into making sure Kit has skills associated with what is noble is supposed to be if the intent was to give the crown to someone else.
Airk and Kit had the same upbringing and education. Which was probably a lot less strict than you would expect of a hereditary monarchy, but unsurprising, given their parents were not hereditary monarchs. Airk was cutting gym class, but their academic curriculum wasn't mentioned. I doubt either was a model student when it came to subjects they didn't enjoy.
 
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