D&D 5E Wish: additional 9th level slot

[Lanefan]

The character is trying to tell reality to sit down, shut up, and do what they say... and they cannot be bothered to read the spell description first?

Spell?

I need a spell to do that?

Hmmm...learn something every day, does I...

 

[Lanefan]

That's fine if that is the table culture and everyone is familiar with that culture. For a player who isn't familiar with the table culture, it could lead to culture shock and assumptions that the DM is a "gotcha" DM.

I'm a "gotcha" DM, and until I'm familiar with how another DM works I assume the same of them and play accordingly.

Put another way, if you're that new to that table it's best to start by erring on the side of caution.

I, personally, have found in the past that it engenders an atmosphere that doesn't match the way I or my friends like to game. We prefer a friendlier atmosphere.

Not related. We're usually the best of friends at our table even in a "gotcha" game.

Hence, I will typically give them reminders and warnings if they forget a pertinent detail of a spell. Some of these guys, including myself, have been playing since 1e or 2e and have multiple versions of spells rattling around in their skulls. Others are complete newbs, for whom this is their first RPG. It's something the character (who has studied magic) should be aware of, but the player (who only pretends to be a mage for a few hours a week) might have made a mistake regarding.

Also not related, really.

I'll also remind people of how something works if I realize they've clearly mis-remembered it, or at worst will give the character a roll to remember in cases where the character is smarter/wiser* than the player.

* - or more sober, a frequent occurrence.

But with something like a wish, if you ain't careful, sometimes it's gonna bite you regardless. Much of this depends on the wish's source - in my game last night, for example, during treasury division the party had to sort out a ring which they'd determined, through a nicely-done series of divination spells, to contain a somewhat malevolent wish - almost like a really elaborate trap.

(example: if the ring-wearer wished for one or more physical objects those objects was liable to appear inside the wisher's body - and just think of the mess that'd result if someone wished for something big like a castle or an elephant!)

 

[Ashrym]

Risking losing access to the most powerful and versatile spell a wizard can cast is a fair risk for power. .

Except there is no risk of losing the spell permanently unless casting wish yourself. Get a ring of 3 wishes, wish for 3 permanent 9th level extra slots, use 9th level slots to cast wish normally or gamble for more slots?

I think not.

 

[Lanefan]

Wish is an amazing spell and trying to use it this way means a 33 1/3% chance of never being able to cast it again. This means a high risk of a vast decrease in what spells the mage who attempts this can ever in some way cast again. If they are a 20th level Sorcerer or Bard they have no way to ever replace Wish with another spell, so that's just one less known spell they will ever have.

Given this, and given that game balance is mostly out the window by time anyone has access to Wish, and given that none of the classes that have Wish access have particularly strong capstones, I would almost certainly allow it with no strings attached. Once. At level 20.

"Once" can be easily enough enforced by houseruling a brief addition to the write-up for Wish: "An individual caster can never successfully wish for the same thing twice. Attempts to do so will always fail, often with dire consequences for the caster."

I think I might just add this to my own write-up, to forestall future headaches.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I have no idea where you got that assumption. It isn't in the threat title, the OP, or my post.



I laid out the point that the specific use in the OP really isn't a combat timescale one, and your case is, so I don't see as how yours includes mine.

To wit - the case where there is urgency and dramatic flow at risk is, in practical matters, not the same as the case where there's no drama currently at risk. There is no urgency in the case given in the OP, so arguments based on urgency do not really apply.

Because they both include nonstandard uses of wish?

Because even though I agree that this particular wish is quite unlikely to be made during combat, players do all sorts of unexpected and borderline insane things?

Because why would you force the player to study the spell and come to their own conclusions when the wish is used outside of combat, but give them a warning when the spell is used in combat? (Heck, if you actually do it that way, that's a great reason for the player to make this wish during a combat!)

What applies to one reasonably applies to the other.

 

[CleverNickName]

It sound to me like the sort of wish that should be twisted. Maybe he gains an addition 9th-level slot, but can't regain it.

Oh yeah, this is definitely the sort of thing that should be twisted. I'd say that he gains the extra spell slot, but (choose one or more):

• he can only use it to cast 1st level spells.
• he can only use it to cast cleric spells. Of course he doesn't have levels of cleric, so...
• he can only prepare spells that target the caster.
• any spell cast with that slot will automatically target the caster.
• he cannot recover hit points until that slot is empty

 

[FrogReaver]

Except there is no risk of losing the spell permanently unless casting wish yourself. Get a ring of 3 wishes, wish for 3 permanent 9th level extra slots, use 9th level slots to cast wish normally or gamble for more slots?

I think not.

Interesting that you have a much different concept in mind than I did in the OP.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Interesting that you have a much different concept in mind than I did in the OP.

In fairness to @Ashrym I feel that's a fair consideration when determining whether a wish is reasonable or not. If the player gets someone(s)/something(s) to cast the wish on their behalf (thereby bypassing all/most of the drawbacks) does it break the spell/game? Because, sooner or later, that's likely to happen unless the DM purposely excludes all wish granting NPCs and items from their campaigns. Which, until/unless your campaign reaches level 17, would effectively be a soft ban on wish.

 

[Ashrym]

Interesting that you have a much different concept in mind than I did in the OP.

A wish isn't more or less powerful just because the source is different. What you just quoted responds to the risk. The risk exists if the wizard casts the spell but then it also opens up what a player can then do without that risk.

The ring example doesn't change my answer re the OP. The wish in the OP replicates an epic boon that in turn replicates using 9th level spells repeatedly (including wish), and is therefore a roundabout example of wishing for more wishes. I would never allow tbat. I would give a temp benefit along those lines as per my previous comments in this thread.

 

[Ace]

A wish isn't more or less powerful just because the source is different. What you just quoted responds to the risk. The risk exists if the wizard casts the spell but then it also opens up what a player can then do without that risk.

The ring example doesn't change my answer re the OP. The wish in the OP replicates an epic boon that in turn replicates using 9th level spells repeatedly (including wish), and is therefore a roundabout example of wishing for more wishes. I would never allow tbat. I would give a temp benefit along those lines as per my previous comments in this thread.

It wouldn't be that cheesy to limit the power of a ring in some ways.

That said a ring of three wishes ought to be something truly epic , once in a lifetime and if instead of saving your entire party, getting stupid amounts of gold or basically getting your hearts desire you want to spend it on a couple of spell slots. Go ahead

Someone who uses the spell in such a manner has the soul of an accountant.

Ignoring the fact that this largely an academic argument, since from what D&D Beyond tell us very few games reach medium tier much less epic tier , its always your game.

Assuming you plan to play for a while, the additional 3 levels of advancement from 17-20 you can easily tweak encounters and add another monster or enemy to fight the party. You as DM also control the tactics and can fairly have them concentrate a little more on the caster since at that level the caster is in fact the biggest threat.

Still if you lack the skill to handle high level play and/or don't feel you have fun than skip it. Don't allow the wish spell or wish items if you can't handle them.