D&D 5E Wish: additional 9th level slot

[Fanaelialae]

The character is trying to tell reality to sit down, shut up, and do what they say... and they cannot be bothered to read the spell description first?

I am normally a pretty lenient GM, but there's limits.

Okay, so if I want to cast wish at your table you're cool with me pulling out my book and studying the spell description for however long it takes me to feel satisfied that I'm 100% on all the details? It's a complicated spell, so it could take a while. I'm not a speed reader.

Personally, I find it more efficient to just clarify any point they seem to have mistaken, but that's just me.

 

[Maxperson]

For a player who isn't familiar with the table culture, it could lead to culture shock and assumptions that the DM is a "gotcha" DM.

I disagree. I don't think I have ever played anyone who would feel like a gotcha happened once it was pointed out that the spell itself clearly says that this sort of thing can happen. People aren't going to be upset with anyone other than themselves for not reading their own spell before casting.

I, personally, have found in the past that it engenders an atmosphere that doesn't match the way I or my friends like to game. We prefer a friendlier atmosphere.

I'm sure there are people out there who will blame you for what are obviously their mistakes, and it seems like you have met them.

Hence, I will typically give them reminders and warnings if they forget a pertinent detail of a spell. Some of these guys, including myself, have been playing since 1e or 2e and have multiple versions of spells rattling around in their skulls. Others are complete newbs, for whom this is their first RPG. It's something the character (who has studied magic) should be aware of, but the player (who only pretends to be a mage for a few hours a week) might have made a mistake regarding.

As will I, but only for things that they shouldn't reasonably be expected to know.

 

[Umbran]

Okay, so if I want to cast wish at your table you're cool with me pulling out my book and studying the spell description for however long it takes me to feel satisfied that I'm 100% on all the details? It's a complicated spell, so it could take a while. I'm not a speed reader.

Sure. You're a high level wizard. You can look at the spell description.

Note, if you need to be able to cast a spell right now, say, in combat, Wish already allows that with no chance of failure, twisting, or loss of ability to cast Wish. A wish for an extra spell slot a horribly inefficient way to achieve an immediate need.

So this is really an out-of-combat thing - you can go read the PHB, and I'll deal with other players until you are ready. Or, even more appropriately, if you're looking for a major increase in power like this, you'd have given it some forethought, and actually looked it up beforehand, asked me between games as to whether it is feasible, and we can have a discussion.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Sure. You're a high level wizard. You can look at the spell description.

Note, if you need to be able to cast a spell right now, say, in combat, Wish already allows that with no chance of failure, twisting, or loss of ability to cast Wish. A wish for an extra spell slot a horribly inefficient way to achieve an immediate need.

So this is really an out-of-combat thing - you can go read the PHB, and I'll deal with other players until you are ready. Or, even more appropriately, if you're looking for a major increase in power like this, you'd have asked me between games as to whether it is feasible, and we can have a discussion.

Not every nonstandard wish will be used out of combat.

In a recent game, I had a PC wizard who had created a trap room wish a group of people into that trap room. Forcibly teleporting a group of people doesn't duplicate a spell effect, and in my opinion it is also a little beyond the example wishes. After informing him that his wish could backfire, I rolled and got a mixed result. They were forcibly teleported into the trap room but the wizard ended up there with them.

This happened in the middle of a combat, so would it be fine by you for that player to study the spell entry, holding up combat, until he was satisfied what the risks involved were? What if the player feels that the wish was equivalent to an example wish, and objects when you say the wish twists?

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Hence, I will typically give them reminders and warnings if they forget a pertinent detail of a spell.

I do the same. I also try to give rough guidelines for my future rulings when they get spells that require one, like suggestion (I am open to the players asking me whether it would be reasonable to suggest an evildoer "surrender and follow me to the town for a fair trial" under parameters X or Y.

 

[Umbran]

Not every nonstandard wish will be used out of combat.

The thread title, and I, have been very specific that this is about one specific non-standard wish. Your expansion of the topic does not qualify as a fault in my position. Applying my answer for a specific case to a general one constitutes a strawman argument. Please do not do it again.

And even then - let us be clear here: You are making the argument that spellcasters shouldn't have to know what their spells actually do. I'm sorry, but in general, I don't support that posit.

"I have the most powerful spell in the game! I want to use it to increase my personal power significantly! I can't be bothered to read it!" Sure. That's sensible.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The thread title, and I, have been very specific that this is about one specific non-standard wish. Your expansion of the topic does not qualify as a fault in my position. Applying my answer for a specific case to a general one constitutes a strawman argument. Please do not do it again.

And even then - let us be clear here: You are making the argument that spellcasters shouldn't have to know what their spells actually do. I'm sorry, but in general, I don't support that posit.

"I have the most powerful spell in the game! I want to use it to increase my personal power significantly! I can't be bothered to read it!" Sure. That's sensible.

It's hardly unusual for topics to drift a bit, and I had assumed that we were discussing general approaches to using wish, rather than only this one specific use case. My case was being made for the general use case, which does include this specific one. The specific case falls within the scope of the general one. I don't see how it's such an outlier that it wouldn't.

I never made the argument that players shouldn't know what their spells do. I made the argument that players are human and make mistakes. That they might not have read the spell recently (or correctly), or that they might mix it up in their head with a version of the spell from a different edition.

I do think that they should familiarize themselves with their spells and know how they work. That doesn't mean I'm going to punish them just because they fall short or make a mistake. I'll simply point out if I think they might be making a mistake and ask them to confirm that it is the course of action they desire, in order to verify that they are making an informed decision. That applies to this specific wish just as much as any other wish.

 

[Todd Roybark]

First

Frankly, IMO, if the wish is for a permanent spell slot then none,

Wow Parsimony is real!.

So the PC suffers this:
The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. After enduring that stress, each time you cast a spell until you finish a long rest, you take 1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell. This damage can’t be reduced or prevented in any way. In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn’t 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days. Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress.

And The PC does not even get the equivalent of the Magic Initiate Feat?

In complete respect, and out of pure curiosity, would you let a PC change their race with a Wish Spell?

 

[prabe]

Wow Parsimony is real!. ✌

So the PC suffers this:
The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. After enduring that stress, each time you cast a spell until you finish a long rest, you take 1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell. This damage can’t be reduced or prevented in any way. In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn’t 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days. Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress.

And The PC does not even get the equivalent of the Magic Initiate Feat?

In complete respect, and out of pure curiosity, would you let a PC change their race with a Wish Spell?

So, I was (at least mostly) joking. That probably didn't convey all that well. A more-accurate answer to the question of what level slot I'd allow is, "it depends." Same answer applies to changing a PC's race. In both instances, it depends on why the player/character is making the wish, and the extent they seem to be looking for a niche in the system they can exploit. I'm fortunate that in the campaigns I'm running I don't have any players looking for exploits, but I've played with the type before, and I don't really have any patience for that [stuff].

 

[Fanaelialae]

Wow Parsimony is real!. ✌

So the PC suffers this:
The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. After enduring that stress, each time you cast a spell until you finish a long rest, you take 1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell. This damage can’t be reduced or prevented in any way. In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn’t 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days. Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress.

And The PC does not even get the equivalent of the Magic Initiate Feat?

In complete respect, and out of pure curiosity, would you let a PC change their race with a Wish Spell?

Gaining a feat (or partial feat) is also outside the defined scope of 5e wish.

As for changing race, assuming the change is to a playable race (as opposed to something think an Ancient Gold Dragon) and the character loses their original racial benefits, I would allow it without risk (though it would have the 33% chance and weakness).

It is effectively a side-grade. In game, it can be explained as the balance being maintained. Nothing is really being gained or destroyed, just changed.