D&D 5E Wish: additional 9th level slot

[Jfdlsjfd]

As for changing race, assuming the change is to a playable race (as opposed to something think an Ancient Gold Dragon) and the character loses their original racial benefits, I would allow it without risk (though it would have the 33% chance and weakness).

I'd say changing race is just replicate the Reincarnate spell (a lowly 5th level spell). OK, you get to choose the race, but it's not important if cast during downtime since you can recast the spell every day until you get your favorite result). Since it would be replicating a spell effect, it wouldn't even incur the penalty.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I'd say changing race is just replicate the Reincarnate spell (a lowly 5th level spell). OK, you get to choose the race, but it's not important if cast during downtime since you can recast the spell every day until you get your favorite result). Since it would be replicating a spell effect, it wouldn't even incur the penalty.

I would have it incur the penalty because it could be used outside downtime for significant benefit. Find yourself or an ally suddenly thrust into underwater combat? Wish you/they were a Triton. So on and so forth.

Also, because I think killing someone and reincarnating them repeatedly to get the race they want is not the intent of that spell. Why even make it random if that were the case? I think a character who repeatedly did that should probably be traumatized by the experience of repeatedly dying and waking up in a new body over and over in rapid succession. You're kind of delving into transhumanism at that point.

Anyway, just to be clear, I think your reasoning is perfectly valid, just not the direction I would go.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Wish is an amazing spell and trying to use it this way means a 33 1/3% chance of never being able to cast it again. This means a high risk of a vast decrease in what spells the mage who attempts this can ever in some way cast again. If they are a 20th level Sorcerer or Bard they have no way to ever replace Wish with another spell, so that's just one less known spell they will ever have.

Given this, and given that game balance is mostly out the window by time anyone has access to Wish, and given that none of the classes that have Wish access have particularly strong capstones, I would almost certainly allow it with no strings attached. Once. At level 20.

Now if they start thinking they should have 3 or 4 9th level spell slots, we might have to veer over into monkey's paw land.

 

[Ashrym]

Thoughts on the extra slot requiring concentration or you lose it?

Concentration is lost during sleep because the character is unconscious.

The character is essentially asking for the high magic epic boon. It's a wish that not only ends up replicating a 9th level spell instead of the standard 8th or lower, but also replicates a 9th level spell (including wish) once per day on top of casting wish. It's a variation on the unlimited wishes wish rationed out per day.

It clearly needs restricted. Players should not be capable of wishing up epic boons.

Gaining a slot for the following day that's gone after used is generous, imo. Wish generally should not allow for replicating another 9th level spell either, which is what the extra slot does. The next day delay instead of immediate use can offset that on a limited basis, imo. It also addresses having used one slot to add another same day which would be pointless.

I'd be tempted to require the next day one time bonus slot AND require concentrartion.

Regardless of that, all the other restrictions if using the wish spell would also apply.

 

[SkidAce]

...If they are a 20th level Sorcerer or Bard they have no way to ever replace Wish with another spell, so that's just one less known spell they will ever have....

Couldn't they find a different spell in some other wizard's book?

 

[Ashrym]

Couldn't they find a different spell in some other wizard's book?

The issue is neither can unlearn wish for another spell by leveling up at that point.

Wizard spell books are not relevant to bards or sorcerers in that regard.

 

[Umbran]

It's hardly unusual for topics to drift a bit, and I had assumed that we were discussing general approaches to using wish, rather than only this one specific use case.

I have no idea where you got that assumption. It isn't in the threat title, the OP, or my post.

My case was being made for the general use case, which does include this specific one.

I laid out the point that the specific use in the OP really isn't a combat timescale one, and your case is, so I don't see as how yours includes mine.

To wit - the case where there is urgency and dramatic flow at risk is, in practical matters, not the same as the case where there's no drama currently at risk. There is no urgency in the case given in the OP, so arguments based on urgency do not really apply.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

The issue is neither can unlearn wish for another spell by leveling up at that point.

Thanks for elucidating a bit of connecting logic I clearly should have explained better.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yep.

Since you regain all expended spell slots after a long rest, you wouldn't regain a 9th because, although you expended it by casting Wish, your wish refilled it with the request of the spell.

So, IMO, there is nothing to regain.

Assuming you allow mechanics to be part of the in-game stuff...

Wizard: I wish I could cast another 9th-level spell.

Granted. You can cast one after your next rest, and after the next rest, etc. until you die.

Now, you could try to get around it. Something like "I wish I could cast Foresight tomorrow." But you still have Wish prepared and don't change it. Could you cast both tomorrow? Or would even that wording of the wish spell compel you to prepared Foresight after your long rest?

As you said, it is up to the DM's discretion, and IMO any wording to try to trick things into getting two 9th-level slots would not work. The wish would be granted, but then done in such a way that there weren't any loopholes.

"I wish to gain the permanent ability to prepare and cast 9th level spells (or IMC "spells of the Ninth Circle") twice per day, rather than once per day, in the same way that I cast other spells, choosing what spell to cast when I cast it, and spending that spell power with the casting, and then regaining the spell power when I sleep for the night."

Since there is no such thing as “9th level spell slots” in the game narrative

Sure there is. That's just gotcha nitpicking. A spell slot is a "the ability to cast a spell of X level". The spellcaster knows they have them.

 

[Ace]

You should absolutely be generous and let PCs be powerful at high levels, but there's a big difference between that and letting them get away with anything and everything.

I mean, why stop at an extra 9th level slot? Why not let the wizard wish to have infinite spell slots? Or let them wish to become the most powerful being in the multiverse?

Wish is described as the most powerful MORTAL magic. Meaning that its power is not unlimited (if it weren't, why have other 9th level spells, or even other player characters). There are plenty of examples of what it can do in the description, which are plenty powerful. I see nothing wrong, however, with saying that there are things beyond the scope of a mortal wish, or within scope but risky and unreliable due to forcing the wish to the absolute extremes it is capable of.

No one here, me included is suggesting giving them (Palpatine Voice) LIMITLESS POWER (Palpatine Voice)

The question was would you allow a single ninth level slot for a wish.

My answer is I would, some restrictions apply. You might not which is fine. If as a player, if I was told it beyond the power of the spell so long as I wasn't punished for asking, I'd be fine with that too.

My feeling is in game terms, 1 extra spell slot is not very much given there are 9th level scrolls and many powerful items out there . Risking losing access to the most powerful and versatile spell a wizard can cast is a fair risk for power. .

YMMV.