D&D 5E (2024) Wizard vs Sorcerer In-Depth Analysis (2024)

[FrogReaver]

You seem to be ignoring or otherwise not counting the ritual spells the wizard took. I think they should be counted, they are likely to bring value. Given their fewer spells known, a Sorcerer is unlikely to have those spells, or the value they provided.

Ah. But I already accounted for their value when I discussed rituals. Trying to double dip the value of those known spells for rituals and for non ritual spells is precisely why I’m pushing back.

 

[FrogReaver]

But it's assumed in class balance that wizards will be able to buy scrolls.

But, given that it's in the rules, when one is considering class balance, one should assume that people are playing in accordance with the rules.

You are complaining that wizards are weak compared to sorcerers, but you are not playing according to the rules if you are not allowing wizards to acquire spells to transcribe, and not playing a game that balances combat with exploration and social encounters. Ergo your opinion is only valid for your home game, it is meaningless when it comes to general discussions on class balance.

What some people may or may not allow in their home games is not relevant to an in depth analysis of the rules as written.

#1. I don’t think so. I’m not even sure that Scroll magic marts are actually the most common playstyle. An occasional random scroll from loot or procedural generation to stock a merchant, maybe.

#2. If it really makes that huge a difference then let’s call it out. If it’s the a major deciding factor in wizard vs sorcerer then lets just say in games where you can wizard is better and in games where you can’t sorcerer is better. Though I’m not sure it’s actually that big a thing.

 

[FrogReaver]

I am not tracking the logic for this. Wizards have more spells, why would they have less non-ritual spells?

Because they took rituals. It’s fairly simple logic.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Comments on individual topics--

Charisma vs Intelligence Skills

Charisma and intelligence skills are both campaign-gate skills, but there are likely difference in how they play out in campaigns. If you miss a Persuasion skill check, perhaps you do not make a friend or convince someone to help you. If you miss a History check, the party might not know that the solution to their problem is kept at castle Anthrax. This seems like it makes the Intelligence skills more powerful, but it might not play out that way. DMs often want the party to find the adventure hook, so if no one in the party is good at the requisite skill, sometimes the hook finds other ways of getting to them (perhaps the potential friend the Persuasion check will gate knows this).

Constitution vs Wisdom Saves
The mind is greater than the body... Says no construction worker ever!
If you'd asked my thoughts on this back in early 2014 I'd have said Constitution for sure. They help concentration saves and they still often carry some fairly rough effects often along with high damage. Contrary to popular belief, damage does matter quite a bit to Tier 1 and Early Tier 2 Wizards and Sorcerers.
That said, a level 1 healing word can solve the 0 hp condition. It's a bit harder to stop a hold person or similar. As such I think that while the Constitution saves that Sorcerers have proficiency in come up a bit more often, that the effects wisdom saves prevent are more often worse.
Which Wins When
IMO. When it comes to Constitution or Wisdom saves It's a tie, though if forced i'd give wisdom an ever so slight edge. One of the worst TPK's we ever had was our Paladin was dominated and forced to smite the rest of us to death.

Saving throw proficiency is kinda mixed in that it depends on campaign, but also what else you are going to do with your characters.

• Constitution saves gate concentration saves. These matters variably depending on how you play your casters (how up front you are, how much you rely on concentration spells, etc.). They also are often so important that people select feats (War Caster, Resilient) to enhance them. An advantage for Wizards is that a wizard is more likely to want to select Resilient: Constitution (getting also a +1 to Con) than a Sorcerer is to get Resilient: Wisdom (this is still likely level 12+, at least if you do array/point buy).
• Wisdom saves gate some low-level shutdown spells like Command and Hold Person (making starting out with a strong save there important), but also Dominate and many monster abilities. Generally there is more shutdown among the Wisdom-save effects, and more Debuffs among the Constitution-save effects, making wisdom slightly more important. However, there are non-save-enhancement answers to the Wisdom ones, with spells and ancestry/class abilities which provide immunity to whole categories of the effects (charms, paralysis, etc.).

Origins
...
Sorcerer Top 3

• Entertainer (Musician) (Cha, Dex)
• Wayfarer (Lucky) (Cha, Dex)
• Acolyte (Magic Initiate Cleric) (Cha)

Wizard Top 3

• Sage (Magic Initiate Wizard) (Int, Con)
• Criminal (Alert) (Int, Dex, Con)
• Acolyte (Magic Initiate Cleric) (Int)

I'd suggest Entertainer and Sage are the respective best Origins, though there's a strong case for the others as well. Having an extra spell and cast in tier 1 feels really good. So does being able to hand PB of your allies Heroic Inspiration once every short rest.

Which Wins When
I had came into this thinking Wizard with Sage would have a slight advantage. However, on careful consideration I'd actually give this to the Entertainer Sorcerer. Heroic Inspiration can be more front loaded into combats and just as impactful as any first level spell. That it comes back on a short rest also makes it excellent for skill check buffing. I think Sage's Magic Initiate can make a case for level 1 or 2 when spell slots and spells known are generally really low and it's skills are generally more useful. Maybe if it was Magic Initiate Cleric or Druid, that Sage granted, but Magic Initiate Wizard just isn't enough.

I've found approximately equal use for Alert, Lucky, and Musician -- going first (sharable), inspiration (sharable, per short rest), and advantage (saves, PB/day) are all huge effects. Magic initiate I think are best when they open up new spell options (so yes, sage is not best for wizard).

Skill and tool/kit proficiency are a harder nut to crack. Sometimes it is best to play into your strengths, other time to fill in gaps for your party. The one that stands out to me is Wayfarer in that it grants Thieves Tool proficiency, but not access to Arcana (for disarming magic traps) or Sleight of Hand (regular traps, and locks). I've always wondered why this was included on a background that didn't also get the Skilled feat, as it makes its usefulness contingent on getting those skills some other way. The sorcerer gets Arcana, but not SoH, making the tool proficiency kinda limited in use. All the rest, it's really group dependent.

Spell List and Known/Prepared

Wizards continue to have more spells available that Sorcerers do not than the converse. Several of them (just in levels 0-3: Toll the Dead, Find Familiar, Identify, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Rope Trick, Animate Dead, Leodmund's Tiny Hut, Summon Fey, and Summon Undead) on a lot of often-taken lists. A few more or fewer spells chosen is not make or break, but not having access to the thing you wanted to do at all can really change which class you will want to take.

 

[Zardnaar]

But it's assumed in class balance that wizards will be able to buy scrolls.

But, given that it's in the rules, when one is considering class balance, one should assume that people are playing in accordance with the rules.

You are complaining that wizards are weak compared to sorcerers, but you are not playing according to the rules if you are not allowing wizards to acquire spells to transcribe, and not playing a game that balances combat with exploration and social encounters. Ergo your opinion is only valid for your home game, it is meaningless when it comes to general discussions on class balance.

What some people may or may not allow in their home games is not relevant to an in depth analysis of the rules as written.

I sell scrolls to wizards. They dont get any more spell slots though beyond meagre arcane recovery.

I still think wizards are weak at levels that matter.

Once again you think youre assumptions are universal.

Rulesxarecthere assuming wizards might get to Scribe spells. There is 0 assumptions on how many extra spells they get.

 

[FrogReaver]

Indeed, and this is the equation you should be using to calculate the additional spells wizards know due to their scribe spells class ability. So 1 additional 2nd level spell and 1-2 additional 1st level spells at level 3 (generally, assume wizards will choose non-specialism spells at level up, since they can scribe specialism spells more cheaply).

I’d be good counting such spells when the wizard is guaranteed to have the funds to buy them, where they have the option to buy them, where they can pick whatever spell to buy they want a scroll of and where something else isn’t more important to spend their gold on.

But even if we give them credit for even more spells known in such canpaigns, besides being a technical point in the wizards favor does it actually move the needle on whether the sorcerer is better or worse in such a campaig? I don’t think so. To do that the wizard would need all of the above and regular information access about what they will encounter days in advance so they will be able to prepare it. Then finally there’s the idea of value above replacement. In combat situations there may often be a technically better spell but usually one of the staple prepared spells a wizard has will perform well. There often isnt much to gain from a specific perfect spell being prepared for combat, though it’s certainly not valueless either.

 

[Merlecory]

Constitution saves gate concentration saves. These matters variably depending on how you play your casters (how up front you are, how much you rely on concentration spells, etc.). They also are often so important that people select feats (War Caster, Resilient) to enhance them. An advantage for Wizards is that a wizard is more likely to want to select Resilient: Constitution (getting also a +1 to Con) than a Sorcerer is to get Resilient: Wisdom (this is still likely level 12+, at least if you do array/point buy).

I don't think having to use a feat to get proficiency is an advantage. A similar level sorcerer could be taking some other half feat (Like Resilient: Wisdom), or taking a full ASI.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I don't think having to use a feat to get proficiency is an advantage. A similar level sorcerer could be taking some other half feat (Like Resilient: Wisdom), or taking a full ASI.

Agree or disagree, I thought I spelled that out fairly clearly. The advantage is that the wizard is more likely to want to take Resilient:Con than the sorcerer is to take Resilient:Wis. Presumably this would be happening after taking War Caster (gives advantage on the concentration save, and a +1 to casting stat) and any remaining ASIs needed to get their casting stat to 20 (one's level 12 ASI, if starting with array/PB casting stat of 15+2 for background). That's also why I specified that the wizard having the Wisdom proficiency at low levels (before one is likely to have taken an ASI that boosts something other than the casting stat) was pertinent.

 

[Zardnaar]

Agree or disagree, I thought I spelled that out fairly clearly. The advantage is that the wizard is more likely to want to take Resilient:Con than the sorcerer is to take Resilient:Wis. Presumably this would be happening after taking War Caster (gives advantage on the concentration save, and a +1 to casting stat) and any remaining ASIs needed to get their casting stat to 20 (one's level 12 ASI, if starting with array/PB casting stat of 15+2 for background). That's also why I specified that the wizard having the Wisdom proficiency at low levels (before one is likely to have taken an ASI that boosts something other than the casting stat) was pertinent.

Problem with wizard wisdom save is wisdom is at best 4th best stat for wizard to take.

Constitution saves come up all the time. Makes sorcerers a better controller on top of metamagic. Which is what both classes should be doing.

Wizard in effect has no good saves. Intelligence saves are so rare as they may never come up.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Problem with wizard wisdom save is wisdom is at best 4th best stat for wizard to take.

Isn't that true for a lot of classes with one save or another? Rangers and Monks attribute needs sit perfectly on top of the 3 common saves (hamstrung only in that they get proficiency in Dex, arguably the least important of the 3). Paladins get to add their Charisma to everything (halfway through many campaigns). I guess Dex-based clerics as well. Otherwise, everyone is going to have a weakness in something that is also a tertiary/quaternary priority among their stats.

Constitution saves come up all the time. Makes sorcerers a better controller on top of metamagic. Which is what both classes should be doing.

How does constitution make the sorcerer a better controller? Just the concentration mechanic?

Wizard in effect has no good saves. Intelligence saves are so rare as they may never come up.

I guess the question is then what is enough. Proficiency and a 12 stat puts you at parity with your own starting save DCs (assuming a 16-17 casting stat), given that the save DCs start at 8 and your average D20 roll is 10.5. Also when the wisdom-based shutdown effects come online and you have the least number of other responses. As you rise in level, your opponents casting stat will rise, but hopefully you will start getting cloaks of protection or ways of getting advantage on saves or immune to effects or the party as a whole has greater responses. Either way, it's not like you can choose to just not be subject to the attack (although careful planning and trying hard not to be is actually a pretty good strategy for both wizards and doubly so the sorcerers).

As for intelligence saves, they are rare, but they can be crippling (Illithid Mind blast effects and such). Of the three low-frequency saves, I think Int is a little rarer but more crippling, and Cha a bit more common but not quite so (Banishment sucks, but at least takes up the concentration of the banisher, unlike a mind blast). It's really Strength saves that lost out in since 2014, with a lot of attacks which procced them now being automatic.