D&D 5E (2024) Wizard vs Sorcerer In-Depth Analysis (2024)

[Zardnaar]

Isn't that true for a lot of classes with one save or another? Rangers and Monks attribute needs sit perfectly on top of the 3 common saves (hamstrung only in that they get proficiency in Dex, arguably the least important of the 3). Paladins get to add their Charisma to everything (halfway through many campaigns). I guess Dex-based clerics as well. Otherwise, everyone is going to have a weakness in something that is also a tertiary/quaternary priority among their stats.

How does constitution make the sorcerer a better controller? Just the concentration mechanic?

I guess the question is then what is enough. Proficiency and a 12 stat puts you at parity with your own starting save DCs (assuming a 16-17 casting stat), given that the save DCs start at 8 and your average D20 roll is 10.5. Also when the wisdom-based shutdown effects come online and you have the least number of other responses. As you rise in level, your opponents casting stat will rise, but hopefully you will start getting cloaks of protection or ways of getting advantage on saves or immune to effects or the party as a whole has greater responses. Either way, it's not like you can choose to just not be subject to the attack (although careful planning and trying hard not to be is actually a pretty good strategy for both wizards and doubly so the sorcerers).

As for intelligence saves, they are rare, but they can be crippling (Illithid Mind blast effects and such). Of the three low-frequency saves, I think Int is a little rarer but more crippling, and Cha a bit more common but not quite so (Banishment sucks, but at least takes up the concentration of the banisher, unlike a mind blast). It's really Strength saves that lost out in since 2014, with a lot of attacks which procced them now being automatic.

Concentration mechanic makes Sorcerers as a better controller along with metamagic. Heighten+twin spell.

Wizard might eventually catch up a day surpass the Sorcerer. I would argue thats somewhere around 10-13.

 

[Ashrym]

The only contention I have here is that the Wizard is going to take a few rituals. Every ritual taken is a spell that's not really worth preparing for any reason, including scribing a scroll. So to say with a blanket statement that wizards scribe scrolls better because they have more spells known, that's not really true in many circumstances.

To put this in perspective if at level 5 a wizard has taken 4 rituals he has the same number of non-ritual spells known as a sorcerer. If by level 9 he takes 7 rituals then it's the same.

Sorry it took me a while to get back to this. Got busy.

In the absence of a wizard in the party who is replaced by a sorcerer then the sorcerer has incentive to also take rituals in order to use the ritual aspect the class gained. I, for example, take rituals on sorcerers or bards too. The benenfit is the wizard doesn't need to prep those rituals while other arcane spellcasters who want to also use rituals are required to cut into their prepared spells to do so. Other arcane caster do have rituals that are worth taking.

DM can still say no or there's n vendors nearby. Your opinion doesn't change that basic fact.

What the DM can say isn't relevant. The PHB lists level 1 spell scrolls in the standard equipment so a DM removing that option is alternative system. Purchasing level 1 spell scrolls is the default.

#1. I don’t think so. I’m not even sure that Scroll magic marts are actually the most common playstyle. An occasional random scroll from loot or procedural generation to stock a merchant, maybe.

#2. If it really makes that huge a difference then let’s call it out. If it’s the a major deciding factor in wizard vs sorcerer then lets just say in games where you can wizard is better and in games where you can’t sorcerer is better. Though I’m not sure it’s actually that big a thing.

I'll repeat what I just said to Zard, "purchasing level 1 spell scrolls is the default," because those scrolls are listed as basic equipment for sale on the PHB list.

Because they took rituals. It’s fairly simple logic.

I take rituals on casters other than wizards too.

I’d be good counting such spells when the wizard is guaranteed to have the funds to buy them, where they have the option to buy them, where they can pick whatever spell to buy they want a scroll of and where something else isn’t more important to spend their gold on.

But even if we give them credit for even more spells known in such canpaigns, besides being a technical point in the wizards favor does it actually move the needle on whether the sorcerer is better or worse in such a campaig? I don’t think so. To do that the wizard would need all of the above and regular information access about what they will encounter days in advance so they will be able to prepare it. Then finally there’s the idea of value above replacement. In combat situations there may often be a technically better spell but usually one of the staple prepared spells a wizard has will perform well. There often isnt much to gain from a specific perfect spell being prepared for combat, though it’s certainly not valueless either.

Funds is a better discussion, I think, than shops with scrolls existing, but plate mail costs 1500 gp. That's the equivalent of 30 scrolls. If we're going to assume players can get funds for plate mail then we have to assume they'll have similar funds for scrolls or other items.

Any wizard should have the funds for many scrolls by the time any character could afford plate mail. That would be restricted to 1st level spells so a person should be looking at 1st level spells specifically for spells sorcerers can't get and the rituals.

It also means it's not unreasonable to assume a sorcerer can also have several scrolls on hand until using them up.

Problem with wizard wisdom save is wisdom is at best 4th best stat for wizard to take.

That's not a problem. It means the wizard gains a reasonable WIS save bonus without needing to invest in Wisdom. Wisdom is a very common save to use so this is a good thing.

Again, sorry for the delayed responses.

 

[ECMO3]

That's not a problem. It means the wizard gains a reasonable WIS save bonus without needing to invest in Wisdom. Wisdom is a very common save to use so this is a good thing.

I agree 100%. I think people put way too much value in Concentration. A failed Wisdom save will usually cost you concentration AND put you in a hurt locker and take away your actions (or worse).

When I am playing a multiclass character, if one of the classes is Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Paladin or Warlock that is the class I am taking first to get the Wis save.

At low level a caster with a bad Wis save is managable, but if you are going to play a high level any caster you are going to need either:
1. Wisdom proficiency
2. Mage Slayer Feat
3. Stand next to a Paladin all the time.

Without one of those you won't be concentrating for very long at high level.

 

[Zardnaar]

I agree 100%. I think people put way too much value in Concentration. A failed Wisdom save will usually cost you concentration AND put you in a hurt locker and take away your actions (or worse).

When I am playing a multiclass character, if one of the classes is Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Paladin or Warlock that is the class I am taking first to get the Wis save.

At low level a caster with a bad Wis save is managable, but if you are going to play a high level any caster you are going to need either:
1. Wisdom proficiency
2. Mage Slayer Feat
3. Stand next to a Paladin all the time.

Without one of those you won't be concentrating for very long at high level.

Concentration saves are super common. Kiddos not as much. I'll often take resilience wisdom however