D&D 4E Women in 4E

[Rechan]

I just wanted to say that I agree with this 100%. To me attractive + dynamic + competent makes for the best female art, and the best male art as well.

Exactly. That's what's being stated.

Variation of art. Less Impractical Armor. Reserve "Cheesecake" for when it makes sense - the sorceress, or the Dervish, or the nymph/succubus/Rogue-pulling-a-Laura-Croft. That's all that's being proposed.

 

[Cadfan]

Gloombunny- I agree with you, but apparently other people do not. When someone's defense of the chain mail bikini is to claim that they like attractive women, but obviously the detractors of the chain mail bikini do not like attractive women, then the only possible explanation for the dichotomy is that the speaker believes that the only way a woman can be attractive is to show lots of skin.

I mean, there's the other possibility, which is that they're being willfully annoying and reductive, but I'd never think that of someone.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Once More.

No one is saying that Cheesecake must end, throw a burkha over those hot elves.

Great. Hot elves it is, then.

 

[swirler]

The point is that Conan was the only picture I could find because I couldn't find any other "Barely Clad Beefcake" fantasy art.

the cover of the NES game Wizards and Warriors 2 had Fabio dressed pretty much like conan if I remember correctly.

I have to say in my experience of playing rpgs (since '89) Most of the groups I have been a part of are respectful to women, and usually have women players in them. My current group for example, has more women then men in it. I am the usual DM with one male player and 2 women. we also have a couple occasional players, both of whom are women. I admit, my group is not normal in that respect, but I submit this as evidence that D&D isn't quite the harsh "boys locker room wall" that the OP tries to paint it as.

 

[Mad Mac]

and that's what I'm calling Shenanigans on. How do any of us know this to be the case? I think there is a lot of assuming going on here.

Agreed. I don't really have a side in this arguement, but I don't consider statements of what "all women" or "most women" other than the actual poster want to carry any more weight than if they were referring to, say, all 1st edition players, or video game players, or hardcore Frogger enthusiasts, or whatever.

An an aside though, the link to the contest on romance novel covers kind of amused me. I've read enough female "romance" novels to know that however classy they may want the cover to be, the content is another story...It strikes me as the equivelent of having dragon magazine printed with a photo of a football player on the cover so you can read it in public without being harassed.

 

[Nifft]

Great. Hot elves it is, then.

Medium rare, please.

Thanks, -- N

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Part of the problem is that artists are 100% perverts. Seriously. You wouldn't believe how hard we have to ramp them back sometimes.

Its not that simple. Some artists spend a lot of time getting the figure right. Artists that are traditionally trained draw nude figures. Its apart of art class. They like showing their skill as artists and the mastery over the human figure. Sexuality also is not so taboo in the eyes of many artists. It also goes back to idolizing works of master artists from Rome and Greece. Artists tend to not count nudity as a perversion, its something to draw and make into great art. I'm a big fan so I hope you don't take what i say the wrong way.

Scout's honor. Thought that was some intentionally mocking misspelled/cobbled together between Freeza, Vegeta and Picollo (Well, Vallejo and Picollo sound similar phonically), three characters from said source, and you were making some sort of lame "Lol half-naked girly men=Anime" crack.

You could have clicked on the links though. Those are some masterful artists, and they helped shape fantasy with their brushes and charcoal.

In my line of work, I work with a number of artists. I specifically asked a few about why there are never any pictures of women who could be described as ugly CHUD like people.

The basic response was that artists often have to spend hours looking at what they draw. Not many would want to spend 50 plus hours looking at a hideous female.

More generally, artists usually appreciate beauty, and I think its safe to assume they like to create it in their art. I suspect that there really are not that many talented artists who would be interested in doing work that basically involved creating artwork that people in general would, by definition, not really want to spend a great deal of time looking at.

Personally, I would love to see a picture of say, a female spell caster with choppy, oily hair, broken teeth, severe acne, a bushy unibrow, and a collection of massive scars. But do you think you will be able to find anyone wanting to draw it?

END COMMUNICATION

That sounds about right. Scars can be cool though.

Anyways, I have extremely negative personal opinions of the sorts of people who get all hot and bothered over artwork of women in D&D. I wouldn't mind throwing the lot of them under a bus in order to make the game less repulsive to (currently) non gamer women who might play if the game wasn't marketed as some kind of boy's club that girls are only welcome in if they accept our rules about a woman's proper role in the gaming world.

I hope this does not included all artists who are by their very nature perverts ;p

Maybe I'm alone in this, but that ain't really the road I want to see this game go down. Nor is it the one that I think would be most profitable for it.

isn't this were the road started from?

Then why beat around the bush?
Green Ronin's owner and Erik Mona were reminising about how one of the 1e books had naked breasts on the cover. I also recall that the 1e MM had breasts showing for the succubus.

I think games need more nudity. I never understood why violence is ok but nudity is not. Why are people so uncomfortable with their bodies? Why is sexuality so scorned but crushing someones head is perfectly acceptable? I'm not trashing violence, I think both are fine in a fantasy context, I just don't understand the bias.

 

[Rechan]

You could have clicked on the links though. Those are some masterful artists, and they helped shape fantasy with their brushes and charcoal.

There were links? I thought they just did the <IMG></IMG>. Huh.

I think games need more nudity. I never understood why violence is ok but nudity is not. Why are people so uncomfortable with their bodies? Why is sexuality so scorned but crushing someones head is perfectly acceptable? I'm not trashing violence, I think both are fine in a fantasy context, I just don't understand the bias.

1) American society. Violence is okay, sex is sinful. It's part of the culture's roots.

2) Marketing. Remember, D&D is supposed to be "kid friendly". If it had nudity, that would isolate it and it would likely not be sold in Barns & Nobles and such. It'd be bad PR, because soccer moms would react to it badly, not let their kids buy it. See: GTA: San Andreas and the Hot Coffee situation.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

There were links? I thought they just did the <IMG></IMG>. Huh.


1) American society. Violence is okay, sex is sinful. It's part of the culture's roots.

2) Marketing. Remember, D&D is supposed to be "kid friendly". If it had nudity, that would isolate it and it would likely not be sold in Barns & Nobles and such. It'd be bad PR, because soccer moms would react to it badly, not let their kids buy it. See: GTA: San Andreas and the Hot Coffee situation.

I think 2 points back to 1). For some reason, society (especially in the US, but also elsewhere) is less open to sex then violence, and this also has marketing implications.

(though subconciously, we are far more attracted by "sex" then violence, I think. Though maybe I am wrong, since Action Movies are usually very succesful )

 

[Moon-Lancer]

There were links? I thought they just did the <IMG></IMG>. Huh.

I without thinking I searched them in Google. My mind thought they were links. oops. your right.

I typed in "Frazetta" and "Vallejo" and got upwards of 60 pages worth

You should search them in Google Rechan. awesome awesome art.