D&D General WotC: Novels & Non-5E Lore Are Officially Not Canon

At a media press briefing last week, WotC's Jeremey Crawford clarified what is and is not canon for D&D. "For many years, we in the Dungeons & Dragons RPG studio have considered things like D&D novels, D&D video games, D&D comic books, as wonderful expressions of D&D storytelling and D&D lore, but they are not canonical for the D&D roleplaying game." "If you’re looking for what’s official...

Status
Not open for further replies.
At a media press briefing last week, WotC's Jeremey Crawford clarified what is and is not canon for D&D.

"For many years, we in the Dungeons & Dragons RPG studio have considered things like D&D novels, D&D video games, D&D comic books, as wonderful expressions of D&D storytelling and D&D lore, but they are not canonical for the D&D roleplaying game."


despair.jpg


"If you’re looking for what’s official in the D&D roleplaying game, it’s what appears in the products for the roleplaying game. Basically, our stance is that if it has not appeared in a book since 2014, we don’t consider it canonical for the games."

2014 is the year that D&D 5th Edition launched.

He goes on to say that WotC takes inspiration from past lore and sometimes adds them into official lore.

Over the past five decades of D&D, there have been hundreds of novels, more than five editions of the game, about a hundred video games, and various other items such as comic books, and more. None of this is canon. Crawford explains that this is because they "don’t want DMs to feel that in order to run the game, they need to read a certain set of novels."

He cites the Dragonlance adventures, specifically.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Chaosmancer

Legend
You do realise sub cultures are a thing right? Since we are in a gaming sub culture, the context to which this is subordinate to is known and so ”culture“ can be correctly used. Being a fan of something is recognised as a culture, there are many papers on fandom cultures and sub cultures.

It’s also a bit of a reach to suggest comparisons were being made to “real cultures facing persecution etc” as the context was clearly referring to fan cultures. A little less of the rhetoric and appeal to worse problems please, this is merely a discussion on canon.

I also keep seeing gatekeeping being used, and used irresponsibly in my opinion. Lore doesn’t gate keep. It attracts, it entices. It offers something to say about a creative work and it’s vision. For many things, it’s literally the appeal. Why read lord of the rings or Harry Potter or whatever takes your fancy over any other book? They offer a rich world, a sense of verisimilitude, a new place to explore with a history. Lore doesn’t gate keep, people do. People who abuse their knowledge of the lore as a metric to measure others. Remove this and these same people who would gate keep will just find another way.

Myself, I’m probably at the acceptance stage with this announcement. The writing was long on the wall with what they’ve done to Ravenloft and others (from my point of view: little interest in actually developing anything, merely draping its skin over their needs of the day). I think it’s actually less about setting specifics and more regarding what they see as a problem to contemporary issues. The Tanar’ri and Baatezu of the day.

Okay, but "canon" isn't "lore"

We are starting to really lose the terms here. This announcement is the destruction of all lore that has ever existed. It isn't like we no longer know what Neverwinter is. But maybe we are going to have a new King of Neverwinter, which isn't currently a thing in the Canon, because the crown and what happens with it is a detail in one of the games and has been left ambiguous.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Hussar

Legend
Except that it never said anything like that. Rather here’s the quote:


Anybody want to keep gaslighting on this?!?
Sigh, keep reading:

Marketing Survey said:
Monthly D&D spending by time in game:
<=1 Year: $7
1-5 Years: $22
5 Years: $16

(Interesting note: Monthly spending in the first five years after adoption
of the game is higher than the spending beyond that point – though the
older, longer gamer plays the game more, they spend less.
This may relate to
the frequency of a character/game restart.)

You want to apologize now for a rather serious accusation?
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
I want to explicitly, straight up, flatly point out:

All that lore us old players enjoy so much was absorbed OVER TIME. Literal years of D&D games, reading novels, playing videogames, and stuff. For -decades-.

While Nym Pymplee was never canonically expressed in any book of Ravenloft he sure as heck wound up in my games after playing Iron and Blood for weeks after repeatedly renting the game to beat up my siblings with every character. And he was often attached to Lord Soth's ends but occasionally freelanced.

I'm sure 90% of the people on this forum have no franging clue who Nym Pymplee is or what Iron and Blood is other than "Some Videogame".

But yeah... I know that lore because I played that game almost 30 years ago. 30. Years.

The only way to reasonably use that in modern canon would be to have him show up in a Cameo. Expecting anyone who have an idea of who he is in a manner that means anything to the story? Pfffft... Get outta here.
 

Hussar

Legend
There's the other issue with canon arguments as well.

Fans are awfully conveniently forgetful about what is and is not canon. After all, anthropomorphic rabbits are canon in Star Wars. The Star Wars Christmas Special is canon in Star Wars. But that sort of stuff gets rather conveniently forgotten whenever we talk about canon.
 

1) You still have the canon. It didn't go anywhere. WotC won't bind themselves to it slavishly, but all the old books are still right there. Declaring them "Noncanonical" makes 0 impact on your games or ability to read and enjoy those works.

What I take from this discussion is that people who like canon need it to be "official," i.e. as a default or baseline. Their enjoyment relies on other people's recognition: they need other people to recognize the specific history and texture of the shared fictional universe for that universe to feel real and worthy of engagement. Derivations from that are non-canonical fanfic.

For those of us who do not feel that way, this position when it comes to ttrpgs can seem absurd, because not only do games inherently create 'non-canonical' fictions, but in fact that is the whole point. You are not recreating the dragonlance saga from the novels you are creating your own saga (or comedy of errors). For people who enjoy lore but do not require an official canon, their fun is not reliant on other people recognizing a shared fictional universe. It's very 'live and and let live.'

People in this thread have pointed out that the people who don't use canon are perhaps unfairly dismissive of those who do. At the same time, their enjoyment of canon is based around a need of official and public recognition. They want official game products to cater to their interest in lore continuity. Other people are of course free to change the default lore, but they are the ones who must adjust. It's an imposition, and it can manifest itself in the form of bad actors (like the argumentative players at your convention table) or more generally in the point of view and expected audience for the official products.

This dynamic was present in several of the alignment threads, where it was somehow argued that homebrewing alignment out of a dnd product was much easier than homebrewing it back in to a dnd product, and thus that wotc was doing DMs some huge disservice in removing it from the latest books.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Sigh, keep reading:



You want to apologize now for a rather serious accusation?
Maybe you should also keep reading:
Monthly D&D spending by age:
12-17: $10
18-24: $12
25-35: $14

Total spending by age:
12-17: $297
18-24: $850
25-25: $2,213

And, the longer they stay in the category, the greater their total
outlays...
Play <=1 Year: $116
Play 1-5 Years: $562
Play >5 Years: $2,502

But the most important part is having to constantly post that their data cutoff was self-admittedly arbitrary and can be expected to insert plenty of bias, despite so many people trying to claim it wasn’t.
 

This discussion is reminding me of two different general trends towards fiction: curative and transformative. I believe this Vox article is where I first heard of the distinction.


The section of the article most relevant to my point:

Some fans are curative, which means they're into knowing all the trivia about a given piece of media or canon and discussing it in minute detail. Some are transformative, which means they're into writing fanfiction or drawing fan art and making fan vids. Some are into both! Fandom is not a monolith.

Quoting user/LordByronic from Reddit who seems to have been where the author took this concept from:

Curative fandom is all about knowledge. It's about making sure that everything is lined up and in order, knowing how it works, and finding out which one is the best. What is the Doctor Who canon? Who is the best Doctor? How do Weeping Angels work? Etc etc. Curative fandom is p. much the norm on reddit, especially r/gallifrey.

Transformative fandom is about change. Let's write fic! Let's make art! Let's make a fan vid! Let's cosplay! Let's somehow change the text. Why is Three easier to ship, while Seven is more difficult? What would happen if ______? Transformative fandom is more or less the norm on tumblr. (And livejournal, and dreamwidth, and fanfiction websites, and...)


The original context of the article and of the discussion that inspired it was over a perceived split in the Doctor Who fandom along gender lines, and why fanfiction - whose authors largely skewed female - was generally reviled by the greater fanbase who leaned male. But I think the curative/transformative distinction has a lot of potential as a frame of analysis, even beyond gender differences in fandom.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
Curative vs. transformative looks like a useful categorization, with the caveat -- given by the author -- that it's a spectrum, not a binary choice.

I like having access to all the Ptolus lore I can, including picking up Malhavoc Press books that touch on it briefly, even if they're not labeled Ptolus books. But I don't feel beholden to it and have done plenty of stuff I've been told by curative Ptolus fans is "wrong." (My favorite is "nothing interesting is happening in the rest of the world, because Monte told us so, even though he also mentioned a huge necropolis of ghouls under another city, a desert where people dissolve due to magical waste and the whole looming three-way civil war that's about to cut loose at any moment.")

I think recognizing this spectrum helps folks understand both where other folks are coming from and that no one here is wrong.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
One thing to consider is that there isn't a lot of widely-accepted verbiage with regard to this particular topic. While I'm sure there are various conceptual frameworks that have well-established terms and definitions, the makeup of what constitutes "canon" with regard to imaginary realms that are presented for public consumption isn't (to my knowledge) one of them. Which is to say, I think that some people - potentially a lot of people - are trying to express this view, but are struggling to articulate something that's largely intuited.

Secondly, the issue of the conceptual space not being "sufficiently" defined - where "sufficiently" is entirely relative for each individual - isn't going to be limited to issues of plots and storylines. Or, for that matter, areas of fictional geography, character backstories, future histories, etc. The same way that each individual decides for themselves what their point of personal saturation is, they also get to define what constitutes how that point is reached (for themselves, I mean). It might be something like "they just de-legitimized the framework we had for understanding what life was like in Unther prior to the Battle of the Gods," or "does that undo how the drow servants of Kiaransalee were taking over the Underdark beneath Vaasa and warring with Orcus's servants there?" Or even just "there's no longer an understanding that Aurora's whole realms catalogue was ever a thing now."

Each person gets to decide for themselves where their personal fill of canon was met, as well as how.

Sure, each person has their own individual lines... but that also kind of ties into what I'm talking about.

Did they de-legitimize the framework for Unther? We don't have a replacement framework, so I'd say that the pointing to the best current framework is still legit, until they do something that disrupts it.

Does that undo the fighting between the Drow and Orcus? I don't know. They didn't say that it did, so any changes for or against are your choice unless they publish something new.

Do you mean there is no understanding that the physical product existed in the Meta? Cause that is blatantly wrong. Are you saying that there is no understanding in the realms? Well, there can be unless they publish something new to change that.


That's the thing I think people are overlooking because of the highly emotional response. This announcement was an announcement of a willingness to change. It was not an announcement of changes. If they never touch on Vaasa again, then nothing ever has to change from the previous canon.

It wasn't meant to be read that deeply. Rather, the point was that it's a situation where nothing practical has changed, but a conceptual realignment of things (i.e. who sits at the top of the political food chain that you're at the bottom of) can still be taken very seriously by some people, for understandable reasons.

Fair, but the only conceptual change is an appeal to authority. That is literally it. The material doesn't change. The way you can choose to use it hasn't changed. The only change is that stamp of approval from WoTC that they support your vision of the truth.

And that is very much the least important thing if your goal is to continue using what you have always used.

This is where we get into definitional issues. I wouldn't call fanfiction - i.e. fiction based directly on another property, used without permission - "canon" in any sense. A particular piece of fanfiction might have a structural framework on its own (i.e. its own internal consistency regarding itself as a story), but it's ultimately dependent on the material that it's making use of. Hence, further changes to that material can change the understanding of what happens in the fanfiction. While things like AUs (alternate universes) that alter some aspect of the underlying foundation might seem to step outside of that, they're still dependent on the things that haven't changed to give them part of their identity (and likewise, what parts haven't been changed can thusly be understood differently should the source material change).

Complete disagreement.

Canon is "the agreed upon history, lore and rules of fiction". Every Fanfiction has its own canon. It is just not the canon of the main product.

Think about Into the Spiderverse for a moment. Canonically Peter Parker isn't the Lizard in the most of those realities... but in Spider-Gwen's reality Peter Parker was canonically the Lizard and was killed by Spider-Gwen.

So, if I said "canonically Peter Parker is the Lizard" I'm right... as long as I'm talking about that reality. If I say "Peter Parker is Spider-Man in the Canon" I'm right... unless I'm talking about the reality where is it Miguel O'Hara.

Now, you could try and argue that the "true canon" is that "Peter Parker is Spider-Man, except in Earth-928 where is it Miguel O'Hara and Earth-65 where he became the Lizard" But that only works because Marvel and Spider-Man are constantly working in multiple universes and connecting those universes together.


To take another stab at it. Did She-Ra and Catra grow up together? 1985 canon is a solid no. 2018 canon is a definitive yes. Is one "more right"? I don't think so. They aren't the same story.

I think we're in danger of confusing which mode of engagement we're talking about, here. As I mentioned previously, the understanding of a particular canon with regards to simply taking it as a stabilized realm of imagination is a different mode than interacting with the component lore in your tabletop campaign. The latter (i.e. using it in your game) could be said to deviate from canon almost by necessity, since the actions of your group will introduce alterations to what the canon has already established (though the scope and scale of those alterations are something else altogether). That's different from what we're talking about with regards to why people feel that canon is important unto itself. (And works as another reason why I think that the term "canon" - being necessarily external to an individual's participation in the lore - loses some of its meaning if it's applied to unauthorized derivative works; please note that I'm using "derivative" without any sort of pejorative undertone).

Again, you're talking about gaming as a mode of engagement, rather than the mode you'd apply to a body of lore unto itself (i.e. a set of novels, a particular TV series, a comic line, etc.). Those are things where "canon" as an idea helps to define and better understand the shared nature of the imaginary realm. Your personal D&D game isn't shared - except among you and your friends - and it's not grounded to you, since you've assumed control of the framework involved. So talking about "canon" in that context seems to me like a misapplication of the term.

But I think that the two can't be seperated that cleanly. By engaging with RPG canon, you by necessity have to change it, so having an entire set of canon that isn't true anymore is kind of the default state. Orcus is alive in Canon. If you kill him, you have changed Canon. And that isn't something people are upset by, in fact, they are eager to try and kill Orcus, despite it irrevocably harming canon.

And from that context... I don't see how WoTC's declaration is any different. Whether or not Orcus really did try and kill the Raven Queen is a much smaller issue than the fact that your gaming group killed Orcus long before that event even happened.
 

MGibster

Legend
For example, if your gaming group wanted your PCs involved in the Battle Hoth did you make it unwinnable until Luke Skywalker announced the plan to trip the Empire's Siege Tank things? Was the Death Star Run only about keeping the TIE Fighters off Luke, a losing proposition until Han Solo showed up in the Millenium falcon?
I don't know if you've seen The Empire Strikes Back, but the rebels lost the Battle of Hoth even with Luke's discovery of the AT-ATs weakness. When I run Star Wars games, I typically don't have the PCs involved in the big events we see in the movies. We know what happened at Hoth and Yavin so why play it out? Now I have actually run a scenario where the PCs were at the Battle of Hoth but I had them doing something entirely different from what Luke was doing. As far as the scenario was concerned, it didn't matter what Luke was doing up there because the PCs had problems of their own they were dealing with.

Or, actually, here was a real issue a friend of mine told me about one of the Star Wars RPGs. They built Han Solo to have an impossible piloting skill. It was quite literally impossible to be as good as Han Solo, let alone better. Why? Because the Canon said he was the best pilot.
I don't know which version of Star Wars you're talking about but that doesn't surprise me much. There are many, many games where the example NPCs are not possible with the rules as written. I don't think it's established anywhere in Star Wars canon that Han is the best pilot in the galaxy. But I could very well see a game designer insisting that Han had to be the best.

So, yeah, playing the Star Wars Universe, and using Star Wars continuity does not involve any gatekeeping. But to keep the Canon pure, Luke has to destroy the Death Star. And Luke has to save Han from Jaba. And it is Leia and Han who lower the shield on Endor (or whatever it was they were doing, I don't remember). And if those things can change... then you are changing the Canon. Or, you are avoiding those events, and specifically working in the area where the Canon is weakest, rather than where it is strongest.

Like I said above, I typically don't have the PCs involved in things like rescuing Han from Jabba because why would I? We already know how that plays out and there's no reason for us to play it out at the table. I have the PCs running through their own adventures.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Remove ads

Top