Dragonlance WotC Officially Confirms Takhisis and Tiamat Are The Same

It's been an issue in dispute for decades, over various editions of D&D, but WotC has officially confirmed that - at least in 5E - Dragonlance's Takhisis is, indeed, currently Tiamat. In previous editions, Tiamat has varied from being a big dragon to a minor goddess, while Takhisis has been a greater god on Krynn. At times they've been the same entity, and at others different entities. Today, WotC is putting its foot down and saying that Takhisis and Tiamat are, indeed, the same being.



Of course, this is not an opinion universally held. Dragonlance co-creator Margaret Weis emphatically stated that "TAKHISIS IS NOT TIAMAT, DAMN IT!"

Fizban's Treasuryof Dragons confirms that the beings echo across various settings.

D&D 5E - Is Paladine Bahamut? Is Takhisis Tiamat? Fizban's Treasury Might Reveal The Answer!

According to WotC's James Wyatt, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons introduces a new cosmology for dragon gods, where the same beings, including Fizban, echo across various D&D campaign settings with alternate versions of themselves (presumably like Paladine/Bahamut, or Takhisis/Tiamat). Also... the...

www.enworld.org

 

[pemerton]

Well at least 2e, 4e, and 5e have equated Tiamat and Takhisis at some point. I don't know if there is published documentation in 1e and 3e.

1989? Yep, the ship sailed a long time ago.

From the AD&D Manual of the Planes (1987), p 111:

As Takhisis in the world of Krynn, Tiamat has never let her followers know that there are other arch-devils or that there is a Nine Hells at all.​

 

[Demetrios1453]

From the AD&D Manual of the Planes (1987), p 111:

As Takhisis in the world of Krynn, Tiamat has never let her followers know that there are other arch-devils or that there is a Nine Hells at all.​

Heh, and that book was written by Jeff Grubb, who is basically up there with Weis and Hickman when it came to creating Dragonlance...

 

[BB Shockwave]

So how does this work, considering as per the Dragonlance novels, Takhisis is dead as a dodo in Kyrnn and has been for quite some time? Tiamat though is very much alive.

'course, the real question is, why did Margaret Weis just not create a brand new Evil Dragon Goddess when she wrote her book, and just copied Tiamat's appearance?

Is this about Takhisis and Tiamat being one and the same (and Paladine and Bahamut)? Pretty sure that was mentioned back in 1e. I tend to keep them separate but officially, they've been the same for ages.

1E? I thought Dragonlance was made when they moved on to 2E already. Was it not in the late 80ies?

This was even a question?

I must have been living under a rock since 1985 ... always assumed they were the same critter by different names. Like Lolth and Lloth.

Pretty sure that's just some spelling error.
But Lolth was quite pissed about it, because for years after, she kept getting all sort of Yugoloth bills and spam mail mistakenly mailed to the Demonweb Pits.

 

[pemerton]

1E? I thought Dragonlance was made when they moved on to 2E already. Was it not in the late 80ies?

DL is from 1984 onwards. I posted an AD&D source (Manual of the Planes, 1987) not far upthread.

 

[Dire Bare]

'course, the real question is, why did Margaret Weis just not create a brand new Evil Dragon Goddess when she wrote her book, and just copied Tiamat's appearance?

Weis didn't write Dragonlance . . . on her own. While she co-wrote the original Chronicles trilogy with Tracy Hickman, the setting, the story, and everything else was a design by committee. Tracy and Laura Hickman had the original idea of a series of modules prominently featuring dragons, but the DNA of what we now know as Dragonlance comes from many parents, Weis being only one of them.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

So how does this work, considering as per the Dragonlance novels, Takhisis is dead as a dodo in Kyrnn and has been for quite some time? Tiamat though is very much alive.

What happens to a god on one world has no effect on the whole. It just means Takhisis can no longer influence Kyrnn her Incarnation there is gone, which is a big loss as it was one of her most powerful ones.

 

[Remathilis]

So how does this work, considering as per the Dragonlance novels, Takhisis is dead as a dodo in Kyrnn and has been for quite some time? Tiamat though is very much alive.

Well, the Planescape answer is that a deity exists in one of two subtypes; single world and multi-world. Single world deities exist on one single planet (Krynn, Faerun, etc) while multi appear on many (Moradin, Tiamat, etc). A multi world deity is more powerful than a single world, even if they are of the same divine rank.

What happens is that sometimes a multi-world deity gains a foothold on a single world without the rest of the pantheon. Tyr, Silvanus and Lovitar are a few examples of deities that came from multi world pantheons but gained following on Faerun. So far so good, right? Those three in particular were either hedging bets against an end (Ragnarok) or jumping ship as their old pantheons were fading from prominence. What's important to know is that the versions on Faerun aren't quite the same as the multi world versions. Compare Norse Tyr to Faerun Tyr. This diversification though has an extra benefit: if something happens to the Norse Tyr, the Faerun version survives, abet in a weaker form, and vice versa. It's a bit of an insurance plan if you think your pantheon isn't going to live forever. Better to live through Ragnarok as a single world God of Justice than to die with Odin and co.

So Tiamat, a lesser multi world deity, got a single world version called Tahkisis, who is a big fish (greater deity) in a small pond (single world). So when Tahkisis goes kaput, Tiamat is weakened but still alive. If Tiamat dies (such as in Scales of War) Tahkisis is unaffected. If both die, then Tiamat is going to the Astral. Luckily, she has followers on multiple worlds like Faerun, Eberron, Exandria, Nerath, Oerth, etc. So to really kill her, you are going to have probably do it on multiple different material planes.

Which is why killing a God permanently is such a difficult task unless the killer is also a deity of equal or higher rank and of the same type (single or multi). The best you as a mortal can do is usually cut a deity off from a particular world. If they are single world, they might go permanently, but if they are multi world, all you've done is cut them off from one source of power and probably made a powerful enemy.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, the Planescape answer is that a deity exists in one of two subtypes; single world and multi-world. Single world deities exist on one single planet (Krynn, Faerun, etc) while multi appear on many (Moradin, Tiamat, etc). A multi world deity is more powerful than a single world, even if they are of the same divine rank.

What happens is that sometimes a multi-world deity gains a foothold on a single world without the rest of the pantheon. Tyr, Silvanus and Lovitar are a few examples of deities that came from multi world pantheons but gained following on Faerun. So far so good, right? Those three in particular were either hedging bets against an end (Ragnarok) or jumping ship as their old pantheons were fading from prominence. What's important to know is that the versions on Faerun aren't quite the same as the multi world versions. Compare Norse Tyr to Faerun Tyr. This diversification though has an extra benefit: if something happens to the Norse Tyr, the Faerun version survives, abet in a weaker form, and vice versa. It's a bit of an insurance plan if you think your pantheon isn't going to live forever. Better to live through Ragnarok as a single world God of Justice than to die with Odin and co.

So Tiamat, a lesser multi world deity, got a single world version called Tahkisis, who is a big fish (greater deity) in a small pond (single world). So when Tahkisis goes kaput, Tiamat is weakened but still alive. If Tiamat dies (such as in Scales of War) Tahkisis is unaffected. If both die, then Tiamat is going to the Astral. Luckily, she has followers on multiple worlds like Faerun, Eberron, Exandria, Nerath, Oerth, etc. So to really kill her, you are going to have probably do it on multiple different material planes.

Which is why killing a God permanently is such a difficult task unless the killer is also a deity of equal or higher rank and of the same type (single or multi). The best you as a mortal can do is usually cut a deity off from a particular world. If they are single world, they might go permanently, but if they are multi world, all you've done is cut them off from one source of power and probably made a powerful enemy.

Go Planescape answer!

 

[glass]

What happens to a god on one world has no effect on the whole. It just means Takhisis can no longer influence Kyrnn her Incarnation there is gone, which is a big loss as it was one of her most powerful ones.

Some people have said that Takhisis and Tiamat being separate entities is "silly". Personally, I find this much sillier.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Well, the Planescape answer is that a deity exists in one of two subtypes; single world and multi-world. Single world deities exist on one single planet (Krynn, Faerun, etc) while multi appear on many (Moradin, Tiamat, etc). A multi world deity is more powerful than a single world, even if they are of the same divine rank.

What happens is that sometimes a multi-world deity gains a foothold on a single world without the rest of the pantheon. Tyr, Silvanus and Lovitar are a few examples of deities that came from multi world pantheons but gained following on Faerun. So far so good, right? Those three in particular were either hedging bets against an end (Ragnarok) or jumping ship as their old pantheons were fading from prominence. What's important to know is that the versions on Faerun aren't quite the same as the multi world versions. Compare Norse Tyr to Faerun Tyr. This diversification though has an extra benefit: if something happens to the Norse Tyr, the Faerun version survives, abet in a weaker form, and vice versa. It's a bit of an insurance plan if you think your pantheon isn't going to live forever. Better to live through Ragnarok as a single world God of Justice than to die with Odin and co.

So Tiamat, a lesser multi world deity, got a single world version called Tahkisis, who is a big fish (greater deity) in a small pond (single world). So when Tahkisis goes kaput, Tiamat is weakened but still alive. If Tiamat dies (such as in Scales of War) Tahkisis is unaffected. If both die, then Tiamat is going to the Astral. Luckily, she has followers on multiple worlds like Faerun, Eberron, Exandria, Nerath, Oerth, etc. So to really kill her, you are going to have probably do it on multiple different material planes.

Which is why killing a God permanently is such a difficult task unless the killer is also a deity of equal or higher rank and of the same type (single or multi). The best you as a mortal can do is usually cut a deity off from a particular world. If they are single world, they might go permanently, but if they are multi world, all you've done is cut them off from one source of power and probably made a powerful enemy.

Yeah, this is over-convoluted. I much prefer Fizban's explanation of them just being "echoes" of the same entity from the First World. It's way simpler, easier to explain/understand, and helps explain why gods of the same name can have different personalities in different worlds.