WOTC undecided over OGL/GSL. Why you should care

[Orcus]

But you're a lawyer. Now we *know* you're lying.

j/k. I like how people that are rabidly defending WotC can ignore information no matter how much better positioned the person is than them to give information and/or analyze it. What do you know mr. runs an RPG company man! I'm an internet smartypants. Win!

LOL. You got me!

I know you are kidding. That was funny. AND it was just what this thread needed. We can all laugh at ourselves, I hope.

Bottom line: Its up to Wizards. I've stated my thoughts. I trust Scott and Linae and the people there. And it will be what it will be.

Clark

 

[hossrex]

Its weird. I agree more with the logic, and ideology of the people who support the OGL, and worry 4E DnD will change that policy... possibly after they've already shipped core books.

Yet...

I can't help but to think that I have never personally gained any advantage from the Open Game License, and while I'm sure the *MAJORITY* of people on this message board have benefitted from it in some form or other (just my guess), the vast majority of DnD players haven't (again, my guess... we all realize that for every one of us who posts to a DnD message board, there are ten casual players who just want to play the game once a week without bothering to think as much about the *SYSTEM*, as they do about their *GAME*).

Wizards of the Coast released more then a book a month (on average) during the 3.X era. Is it so terribly important that we also get all this other content from smaller publishers? I'm sure there is more then a handful of positively genius content released because of the OGL... the quality unfortunately doesn't change the sad fact that the vast majority of DnD players will be blissfully ignorant of said quality. WoTC measures the movement of its product by the hundreds of thousands. The collective moralistic of us here (myself tentatively included... at least on principle) are biting our lips, and wringing our hands over a few companies that measure its sales... not in hundreds of thousands... but in hundreds, *OR* thousands.

These handful of people creating genius material for 3.X under the OGL wont simply throw up their hands in defeat and walk away into the sunset because they (entirely theoretically) can't create 4E material. They'll either continue to create 3.X stuff, in which case if you're following a particular campaign, or world setting you can continue to do so... or they'll just start creating alternate game rules. If you're interested enough in the role playing game environment that you post on ENworld, and worry about how Hasbro will influence the new edition of Wizards of the Coasts game Dungeons and Dragons... well... you're probably well read enough to know when these special people are creating new genius works, and you're likely as able to find a game to play them, as you are to find a game to play third party "unofficial" 3.X DnD rules.

The majority of casual DnD players (of which five players out of our seven person group would be considered) had no idea there were third party DnD material... have no idea there might be no future third party DnD material... and really care far more about how they're going to find that Ancient Lich, or one of the seven parts of that damned Rod then they're concerned with who else gets to create DnD material.

Moral concern is good... moral outrage is occasionally warranted... picking your battles is divine.

This entire debate is to ensure that product lines that don't even exist yet (4E third party material) are maintained. If they never exist, who'll miss em? No one is saying people can't keep making 3.X stuff. I've read enough about the OGL to know they can't do that.

Feel free to pick apart my statements, purposely misinterpret my words, and flame me mercilessly. I don't come here often enough to likely read the replies anyway.

 

[Glyfair]

SJG seems to do really well with the sort of weird niche products that the WotC was trying to farm out to third parties with the OGL--heck, they've published a GURPS supplement based on a webcomic .

Well, doing "really well" may be hard to quantify. Clearly it is successful, at least by RPG standards. Yet, 70% of Steve Jackson Game's business is from Munchkin.

 

[Roman]

I really doubt that WotC is seriously considering not including 'open' gaming in the 4th edition. Unless Orcus has some inside information, and I doubt that, there has been little evidence to suggest that apart from his own hunch. Now, I know that he has industry experience and all that, but a hunch is still merely a hunch.

What is probably happening is the final approval of the exact details of 'open' gaming under the 4th edition. I keep putting 'open' in quotation marks, because it can mean different things: there are different levels of 'openness' and it is likely that 4E will have a more restrictive license than 3.5E, but nonetheless I think it will still be 'open' enough to warrant the 'open' label.

There is no reason for the panic, the single post concerning policy vetting really does not imply what people here seem to fear. I suppose it could imply that, but it could also imply many other possibilities. For some reason people jumped to their worst fear and think that it is that possibility among many, which will manifest, but the probability of that happening does not seem particularly high.

 

[Roman]

Its weird. I agree more with the logic, and ideology of the people who support the OGL, and worry 4E DnD will change that policy... possibly after they've already shipped core books.

I have probably* never bought a third party d20 or OGL product before and throughout the course of the 3.X edition, my RPG book purchases have been exclusively from Wizards of the Coast. As such, one would think that the presence or the absence of third party support for 4E should not concern me. Unfortunately, that is not the case. I dislike many of the changes made in the process of making 4E and regardless of my previous purchasing behavior, if I do switch to 4E (and I am still undecided, but leaning against switching) I will have to rely on third party products that reverse those bad changes, while maintaining the positive aspects of 4E. If there are no 4E products that do this for me, there will be no agonizing decision process of whether to switch or not. I will simply automatically stay with my houseruled 3.5 edition or one of the '3.51' evolutions, such as the Pathfinder RPG, being developed by Paizo. That said, though, I really doubt that this will be an issue, as I doubt that 4E will not have an open license. I think this is needless panic on the part of many here - the plans for an open license have been announced a while back and I have seen no real evidence to indicate that this has changed. The single post by Mike Lescault does not really lead to the conclusions people are jumping to.

*I say probably, because none come to mind - I might have bought some, but at the moment I certainly cannot remember doing so.

 

[Psion]

I am a big fan of the OGL and think that gaming would be worse today if it wasn't for it. I think that the GSL is regrettable.

But I don't think Wizards is under any obligation to continue to distribute their games under the OGL.

So, no petition signing from me. Even if I thoght it would make a difference.

 

[mxyzplk]

I am a big fan of the OGL and think that gaming would be worse today if it wasn't for it. I think that the GSL is regrettable.

But I don't think Wizards is under any obligation to continue to distribute their games under the OGL.

So, no petition signing from me. Even if I thoght it would make a difference.

This is a little confusing. If a company has an obligation to do something and they don't, you sue them. They're legally liable.

In all other cases, whether it's Starbucks, your local dry cleaners, or Wizards of the Coast, customers provide a variety of feedback - solicited to unsolicited, angry letters to petitions. That's the expected way of customers getting their opinion to a company that clearly doesn't want or value it.

 

[mxyzplk]

I can't help but to think that I have never personally gained any advantage from the Open Game License, and while I'm sure the *MAJORITY* of people on this message board have benefitted from it in some form or other (just my guess), the vast majority of DnD players haven't (again, my guess... we all realize that for every one of us who posts to a DnD message board, there are ten casual players who just want to play the game once a week without bothering to think as much about the *SYSTEM*, as they do about their *GAME*).

Y'all don't even use OGL adventures from Paizo, Goodman, Nrecromancer, Atlas, etc? Do you just do all your adventure design yourself? (WotC puts out the occasssional adventure but not enough to sustain a group; and half the time they're stinkburgers besides)

My gaming group plays games other than D&D, sometimes OGL games. But half of our ongoing campigns are D&D. When we play D&D, we do pretty much just rely on Wizards sources for rules content - bringing in p-classes, feats, etc. from external sources is too dicey. But adventures, that's a different story. last WotC adventure we ran was return to the demonweb pits. It was mostly notable for fungal bats and us killing a bunch of gods at 9th level. Didn't get a good reaction. (A corollary is that for us it's about the game and not the system too.)

Anyway, my contention is that you're benefitting from the OGL whether you ever buy a product from anyone other than WotC or not. This is because WotC benefits from the OGL. It provides them with additional sales, skilled freelancers/new hires, and more players familiar with their ruleset. These translate into benefits to you.

 

[catsclaw]

I can't help but to think that I have never personally gained any advantage from the Open Game License ...

Simply put, you're wrong.

The reason the OGL is a good idea for WotC is because it makes them money. It makes the whole industry money. It expands the size of the industry, and draws in more customers, which encourages sales of every product. And frankly, anything that drives sales of every product is going to disproportionately benefit Wizards of the Coast.

Look at it this way--say you have a group of gamers who are looking for a new game. One of them picks up Paizo's Rise of the Runelords, flips through it, and decides to run it. Now that drives sales of Paizo's products--at least 6 Pathfinder issues, maybe some Golarion products, maybe some minis, maybe a Harrow deck. And for Wizard of the Coast? Probably everybody picks up a Player's Handbook. The guy playing the Wizard wants more options, so he buys Complete Mage and the Spell Compendium. There's a woman who wants to play a Scout, so she buys Complete Adventurer. And someone else wants to play a kobold, so they pick up Races of the Dragon. Without Paizo, those sales don't happen. That drives down the profitability of Wizards. That means less products get produced, which means less products for you to choose from, even if you never personally buy a third-party product.

Want a more subtle example? Take a look at Mike Mearls' design experience. How many projects are third-party d20? By my count, all of them, save one, since 2001. Without the OGL those projects don't exist, it's less profitable to be a freelancer, and a lot of great designers never even get their break in the industry. That's bad for the industry, bad for WotC, and bad for you as a gamer.

 

[jgbrowning]

Want a more subtle example? Take a look at Mike Mearls' design experience. How many projects are third-party d20? By my count, all of them, save one, since 2001. Without the OGL those projects don't exist, it's less profitable to be a freelancer, and a lot of great designers never even get their break in the industry. That's bad for the industry, bad for WotC, and bad for you as a gamer.

I'm sure many people haven't thought of this reason why the OGL is positive for WotC and positive for individual gamers who don't purchase 3rd party products. Without the OGL, there would have been no way for Mike to get the large amount of experience he did that lead to him becoming a designer for 4e.

This was one of the main advantages of Dungeon & Dragon Magazines as well. They acted as a talent locating and training device, although at a slower rate than the OGL did given their format, IMO.

joe b.