[WotC_Logan] Why is Tiamat Huge?

[doctorhook]

FWIW, I assume that minis and battlemap-logic are a major factor in removing the Fine, Diminutive, and Colossal size categories from 4E. ("Tiny" is now anything smaller than Small, while Gargantuan is anything larger than "Huge".) Tiny figures are already unmanageably small, so Diminutive and Fine minis were obviously always out of the question, while Colossal poses two problems: Figures this size are extremely expensive to produce, (and thus cost a lot for the consumer to buy a single figure), and on the battlemap, the figure is so large as to be almost superfluous (it takes up a gigantic area on the map, it can move perhaps three or four times the length of the battle grid in a single action, and it can reach practically anywhere on the map from the middle).

I love my Big Red, but he's hardly ever going to see any use. Similarly, I really hope that WotC doesn't produce many more Tiny minis, or maybe develops some way of placing them on larger bases, because frankly, they're too small and light to be worth using, IMO.

OTOH, I really like the D&D Icons line overall (I have one of each), and I'd love it if they produced more Gargantuan creatures! I'd totally buy a Gargantuan Tiamat, and yesterday's MotP preview made me want to buy a Gargantuan Astral Dreadnought, too!

 

[nightwyrm]

Tiamat is female right. If she's too big, she'll have trouble finding a guy big enough to eh....satisfy her. Gargantuan male dragons don't grow on trees you know.

 

[Victim]

It's not like there's a significant gameplay difference between Huge or more.

 

[JackSmithIV]

Why does soemthing have to be BIG to be powerfull man???

What if she's like infinitely small... GOD is in the electron mannnnnnnn

Like I've mentioned in the thread specifically dedicated to another War on Wizards for somehow demonstrating a re-prioritization of the franchise in one word in one stat block in an optional supplement, Tiamat is also a female, which in some magical beasts (or even natural beasts) means slightly smaller. For the full arguement, you can go to the rediculous other thread and study the stickman arguement over there.

 

[I'm A Banana]

FWIW, I assume that minis and battlemap-logic are a major factor in removing the Fine, Diminutive, and Colossal size categories from 4E. ("Tiny" is now anything smaller than Small, while Gargantuan is anything larger than "Huge".) Tiny figures are already unmanageably small, so Diminutive and Fine minis were obviously always out of the question, while Colossal poses two problems: Figures this size are extremely expensive to produce, (and thus cost a lot for the consumer to buy a single figure), and on the battlemap, the figure is so large as to be almost superfluous (it takes up a gigantic area on the map, it can move perhaps three or four times the length of the battle grid in a single action, and it can reach practically anywhere on the map from the middle).

I think you're right.

I think, more specifically speaking in the game, there are better ways to handle creatures of these sizes, anyway. An immense creature should be more of a setpiece than a tactical minis battle. An itty bitty creature usually feels more like a trap or a hazard than a tactical minis battle, too. Using the minis system and representing them with minis is mostly pointless...indeed, I'd say representing them in the usual "roll...hit...damage...repeat" combats is bound to create logic problems (Ah, that fly-sized dire gnat has....107 hit points?! WHA?).

I think figuring out a new way for dealing with creatures of that stature (so dramatically different from PC stature) is a good idea. Swarms do that, in part. Hazards and traps and giant "setpiece" battles more about skill checks than about moving around pieces of plastic on a board can also do that.

I don't mind these sizes being handled differently, honestly. My ideal agenda would work in sync with the minis agenda.

But I'm not a huge fan of Plastic Logic being the operative force on game design, here. That's lame. It's lame that the toughest dragon in the game isn't also the BIGGEST dragon in the game. I'd have no problem with a battle with Tiamat be a multi-tiered setpiece using every element of a character in order to wound her. Jumping around her wings. Climbing on her back. Dodging her immense foot and then climbing up her knee. Battles with creatures like this should play more like Shadow of the Colossus than Action Figure Theatre anyway. Fighting her shouldn't just be the endpoint of an adventure, fighting her could be the ENTIRE ADVENTURE, with little nested quests of figuring out how to damage her, or retreating when she goes nova for a minute, or otherwise navigating around her titanic form.

She's fine for the purpose she was designed for, but I think she was designed with too narrow of a purpose in mind.

 

[WalterKovacs]

A huge mini also allows for a more open combat environment than a gargantuan mini. A gargantuan mini pretty much mandates a huge, mostly-featureless open space for them to move around in. A huge mini has a few more options in a combat, a few more environments and caves that it can inhabit.

Eliminate the word "mini" and replace it with monster ... and it still applies. Using the miniatures and the grid make it more obvious and concrete in terms of how the characters and the monster interact with the terrain ... however a smaller form makes it easier for the monster to move around within the space they are in. Assuming that Tiamat, as a god, has some ability to "choose" her size, going a bit smaller gives her a bit more maneuvarability, less need to squeeze, etc.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Eliminate the word "mini" and replace it with monster ... and it still applies. Using the miniatures and the grid make it more obvious and concrete in terms of how the characters and the monster interact with the terrain ... however a smaller form makes it easier for the monster to move around within the space they are in. Assuming that Tiamat, as a god, has some ability to "choose" her size, going a bit smaller gives her a bit more maneuvarability, less need to squeeze, etc.

Sure, that makes sense for most monsters.

But if I'm Tiamat, and I'm currently one of the hardest things in the entire game to kill and (perhaps more importantly) if I'm a FRIGGIN' GOD, I don't need to "squeeze" and "move around."

If a mountain gets in my way, I don't try to squeeze around it. I BLOW IT THE NINE HELLS UP. I don't fit in a lair, I hollow out the thrice-damned rock that these petty mortals call a planet with my breath of ultimate hatred and draconic fury, and I make THE PLANET my lair.

I think Tiamat delivers well on the prerequisites you need to truly slay her as a deity-level challenge. But once that last combat begins, it's no different from fighting a really tough terrasque or something. Push some plastic around...roll...hit...damage...repeat.... She's fine for what she is, but I think I'd prefer something with a some more AWESOME.

And it does suck a bit that the toughest dragon in the game isn't also the biggest dragon in the game.

 

[Stogoe]

My Huge Red Dragon mini is plenty big enough, thanks.

 

[MrMyth]

And it does suck a bit that the toughest dragon in the game isn't also the biggest dragon in the game.

As mentioned, though, you can simply make that adjustment in your own game without any problem. I'm running an adventure with a large white dragon. I wanted it to be more imposing - I'm planning on simply making it huge, with no other mechanical changes. Easy to do.

Now, I do get the idea about not wanting the existing minis to determine sizes for game stats (and I largely agree with it). On the other hand, I think it will be an uncommon enough situation that it doesn't worry me. Additionally, there is something to be said for making the monster a size able to be reasonably handled on the battlefield - because if they were going to make Tiamat big, then simply gargantuan wouldn't cover it.

So the default can be Huge, and for anyone that wants something more, then can make that change with ease. Sure, there might not be a mini for Colossal+... but Tiamat is an easy solution, as you can simply drop down a Black Dragon mini, a Blue Dragon mini, a Green Dragon mini, a Red Dragon mini, and a White Dragon mini, put them all together, and you've got yourself something imposing!

 

[I'm A Banana]

As mentioned, though, you can simply make that adjustment in your own game without any problem.

Whopp-i-dee-doodle.

If my legs are sawn off, I can manage pretty okay with a wheelchair.

It doesn't mean it doesn't suck that my legs are sawn off.

It sucks that her published stats have her at Huge. What I can do in my own home games to fix the problem is kind of irrelevant.

And the reason for that suckage being Plastic Logic just rubs salt in the wound. Like sawing off my legs to protect me from badly polished toenails. "But I don't even polish my toenails!" "Ah, but some people with perhaps more disposable income do! And if you're not a fan, well, you can always use that wheelchair, right? Good as new!"

It's not like I'm going to scream at the nerd-gods because they made a rule based on their little plastic toy or whatever, but it's ridiculous, and whether or not I can fix the problem doesn't really change the fact that it's still entirely ridiculous and deserving of me pointing a finger and laughing at it in a public forum...

That doesn't mean she doesn't rock the casbah at what she was designed to do, that just means that what she was designed to do isn't as useful to me as what she could/should have been designed to do. So I'll end up ignoring those stats like nuclear waste and maybe going yet another edition without fighting Tiamat. No big deal, really, but they could've done better, I think.