D&D 5E Would this fix Champion?

Problem of the champion in not the power. He has sustainable power.

Problem is that the class is "boring", that is there is no decision making except who to attack.

No "active" abilities except action surge.

You just roll the dice and hope for the best.
For some people that is actualy something that is attractive abvout the Champion.
players that prefer a diferent playstyle is noth something that has to be fixed.

If you like more active powers Champion might not be the subclass for you.
 

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l0lzero

First Post
Let me preface this first with the following: I have not actually played a straight champion fighter, I have played a champion fighter vengeance paladin, and I only every now and again regret not going battlemaster, but that's because my dice hate me and I rarely crit, even with advantage and expanded crit range. Sooooo, my suggestions may not be particularly helpful.

Made my buddy a champion, he wanted to be a dual-wielding halfling fighter, but wanted a quick character (he's played before in previous editions a lot, and 5th a little, but I spend a lot of time making characters so I can pump them out with some pretty serious speed), so we agreed he'd be a champion. Normally he plays rogues or more great-weapon oriented fighters. He was REALLY bored with the character. Basically his issue seemed to be that his options were to roll a bunch of attacks, and then roll some damage dice. As such, I want to offer a few potential options, suitable for 3rd level when you pick up the archetype:

-- NOTE -- I would only choose one of these options, or, if you really like more than one, tone them both down. Throw anything probably isn't going to break any games, so maybe it could be left as is and another one added at a higher level or something.

1. Throw Anything: the champion can throw any weapon as though it had the throwing property with a 30' range. Doesn't return, you can just throw it, using whatever ability is appropriate to the weapon. Now you have a reason to carry all those magical longswords that pop up in random loot that nobody will use...

2. Give them a choice of +2 Str, or +2 Dex at level three. This would free up the 4th level ASI to let them pick up a more flavorful feat, but still let them retain improved effectiveness. The fighter gets additional ASIs anyway, so it's not out of line for the class, but this locks them into a specific choice that influences their accuracy and damage directly increasing their role effectiveness. This would let them further specialize with their favored weapon(s), or pick up some action versatility, or just pick up some nifty ability.

3. The short rest abilities of the fighter now restore after leaving initiative, or, refresh when they roll initiative, similar to the "if the battle master rolls initiative without any superiority dice they get one back" feature, but at much lower level. This is probably the most OP one, but it would bring the champion closer to the always on 3rd ed playstyle for the fighter without having to fiddle with too much. These additional action surge uses would have the added benefit of letting them stay competitive with the battlemaster since it would shift, for them, the action surge mechanic from a rest recovery to an initiative recovery. I feel this also ties in to remarkable athlete very well thematically; "The party escapes the gith forces narrowly by leaping onto a shipping barge heading out into the astral sea. As they prepare to rest and formulate a new course of action, the cargo begins to move and a slimy tentacle slithers out from a crate entangling the cleric having caught him unaware. The champion, ever ready for battle, leaps into action, ripping the cleric free and slashing wildly with his mighty blade at the appendage as it slips back into the crate..."

4. Give them something similar to hex/hunter's mark, that isn't a spell, and has a short rest recovery mechanic. Letting them designate a target and deal an additional d6 whenever they hit could go a long way to appeasing the apparent lack of power the champion has. Call it "Focused Strikes" or something.

5. Apparently advantage on initiative is both not too powerful and totally appropriate for low levels (*cough-rangerrevised-cough*) so give them advantage on initiative checks and call it "Battlefield Awareness" or something.

6. Buff remarkable athlete: you add your proficiency bonus as a bonus to all those checks, proficient or not. Basically gives the fighter limited expertise, just like the knowledge domain can for clerics. If expertised reliable stealth isn't broken, then expertised athletics/acrobatics isn't broken either. Or, give them straight advantage on those checks, and remove the bonus to the roll. Advantage would prevent cheese with rogue/bard MCs (improper wording could result in triple proficiency to stealth with expertise and remarkable athlete), and REALLY help out those heavy armor fighters when they need to be sneaky.

7. Hard to Kill: advantage on death saving throws, and +1 HP recovered when spending a hit die to regain hit points.

8. Improved Second Wind: You have advantage on the d10 roll to determine how many hit points are recovered when using second wind (or possibly they recover an additional d10).

9. Weapon Specialization: When you achieve 3rd level you choose a single weapon that your character specializes with, you deal an additional point of damage (maybe +2, not sure how the math would work out in the long run, trying to catch up the perceived shortcomings vs battlemaster) with the weapon, and have advantage on opportunity attacks made with the weapon. You may choose an additional weapon at 10th and 17th level.

10. Strength of Arms: when you are the target of a grapple or shove, and choose to resist with athletics, you may add the magical bonus of the weapon you are wielding to your roll, you further have advantage on checks to resist being disarmed.

11. Master-At-Arms: upon choosing this archetype at 3rd level, you may choose to take one of the following feats as a bonus feat: Alert, Athlete, Charger, Crossbow Expert, Defensive Duelist, Dual Wielder, Durable, Grappler, Great Weapon Master, Heavy Armor Master, Inspiring Leader, Mage Slayer, Martial Adept, Medium Armor Master, Mobile, Mounted Combat, Polearm Master, Resilient, Savage Attacker, Sentinel, Sharpshooter, Shield Master, Tavern Brawler, Tough, or War Caster.

Just some quick options off the top of my head to try and generate ideas you think would be useful to your enjoyment of the champion. Personally, I don't think it really needs to compete with the other archetypes all that closely, because there are ways to make greater use of improved crit in an MC build, but if you think it's weak or lacks flavor, man who cares, fix it the way you think it should be fixed. Some of what I suggested is PROBABLY too powerful, but hey, if you think the champion is lacking, maybe they won't seem too powerful to you.

Good luck in your games!
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Oh ... you don't have to go to all of that difficulty to make grognards cry.

It's real simple. Next time the grognard sidles up to you, and starts telling you about, "Blah blah blah we had to walk both ways, uphill, in a blizzard, just so that we could get our characters TPKd in Tomb of Horrors, and we LOVED IT blah blah blah never the same once Gygax was forced out blah blah blah young whippersnappers with your anime blah blah blah back then, we didn't have blogs, or forums, we wrote letters to Dragon magazine blah blah blah ..." here's what you do....

Just look them in the eye.
And say very slowly, "You will never recapture your youth."

Then slowly walk away.

And yes, you should feel bad. Because some day, you will be that grognard.

We're all playing a TTRPG. Let's be real. None of us has grown up to begin with, and my AD&D books were never taken away by the RPG police. They're still available. So saying that would have literally no effect.

Just saying that Fighters should have nice things is often enough to make them cry.

No one "cries". That's loaded language that says more about the lack of maturity with the person saying it than anything else. However, what usually gets grognards to respond is demanding that every class and subclass to be designed how you want, and screw everyone else's preferences. Want a fighter with options? Congrats, you have the battlemaster. Grognards aren't creating threads demanding that the BM needs to be removed or otherwise be changed to a simpler subclass without options. But that's not good enough. Nope, you need to make sure that all those people who actually want a champion fighter don't get it, and demand that that subclass is changed to resemble the battlemaster in complexity because "who in their right mind would ever choose to play a champion over a battlemaster?".

So you're insulting and selfish? Congrats I guess...
 

Eubani

Legend
We're all playing a TTRPG. Let's be real. None of us has grown up to begin with, and my AD&D books were never taken away by the RPG police. They're still available. So saying that would have literally no effect.



No one "cries". That's loaded language that says more about the lack of maturity with the person saying it than anything else. However, what usually gets grognards to respond is demanding that every class and subclass to be designed how you want, and screw everyone else's preferences. Want a fighter with options? Congrats, you have the battlemaster. Grognards aren't creating threads demanding that the BM needs to be removed or otherwise be changed to a simpler subclass without options. But that's not good enough. Nope, you need to make sure that all those people who actually want a champion fighter don't get it, and demand that that subclass is changed to resemble the battlemaster in complexity because "who in their right mind would ever choose to play a champion over a battlemaster?".

So you're insulting and selfish? Congrats I guess...
Congratulations you took a light hearted joke at a cardboard stereotype and ran with it like it was a serious political essay. I have not seen an over reaction of this magnitude in quite a while. Besides what would be wrong with a simple class having choices like do I want to be a simple melee character or do I want to be a simple archer character. Ultimately....get over yourself, unless you want to keep playing the poor victim card.
 

pming

Legend
Hiya!

I just want to respectfully point out that while you and others do not find issues with the perceived inadequacies of the Champion subclass, there are those of us that do and it is hampering our enjoyment of the subclass. I think instead of telling us that it is not a problem, it would help us all to be happier with the game if we could set aside our biases and help each other make the game fun for everyone.
**SNIP**
Hopefully we can find some fixes for the Champion in this thread for the people who want them.

...then stop calling them "fixes". It's like telling a vegetarian..."Oh..you don't like meat? Hmmm...don't worry, we can fix that little problem of yours", or telling an atheist..."Oh, you're an atheist? Well, no worries, we can fix that little non-belief problem you have".

The title of this thread should have been "My Changes to the Champion. Opinions?", and I bet copper to gold that we wouldn't have seen nearly the amount of "Uh, it's not broken, it works just fine" type of posts. But by using the word "fix", it sounds like it's telling everyone who doesn't think it's broken that they are somehow 'wrong' or 'not seeing it'.

Personally? The OP's change will probably work just fine...if not, he can tweak it later. Me nor my group have found Champion's to be "boring" or anything even remotely close to being "broken". In fact, I think that since we started playing 5e (back when the Starter Set was released), I've only seen*one* Battlemaster; every other fighter has gone the Champion route...so, uh, yeah.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

What if Champions level 3 ability increased their crit range to 19-20, and made their criticals hit for 3x the number of dice, instead of 2x? Since flat damage increases represent a significant portion of the damage spread in 5e, this would not necessarily be game breaking, but on average it would increase the viability of crit-Champions without needing specific magic items or multiclassing. Would this be overpowered, or would it fix them?

I think that would be fine. I recently contemplated a similar change which expanded their crit range to 17-20 at 3rd level and 13-20 at 15th level, and even though it started out as a thought experiment I wound up adding it to my house rules document for next campaign.

But I don't think it's quite enough to make the Champion interesting. Champion has two weak abilities in a row: Improved Critical and then Remarkable Athlete. I've been using a variant Remarkable Athlete which stacks with proficiency bonus (like a little half-Expertise), and I think that think by itself is enough to make high-level Champions interesting--but my Remarkable Athlete fix still leaves low-level Champions unexciting. E.g. you'd never be tempted to go Champion 5/Rogue 5, but you might be Eldritch Knight 5/Rogue 5 or Battlemaster 5/Rogue 5.

I think expanding the crit range as you suggest is enough to make their 3rd level ability at least mildly interesting, so that you might go Champion 5/Rogue 5 after all. But it still needs a beefed-up Remarkable Athlete to make it somewhat competitive with superiority dice or wizard spells + Weapon Bond + War Magic. I don't think improved crits can possibly be enough on their own because they just don't have enough impact.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
No, but I can recall some of it, but it was build specific. I was using a flail and shield and I think this was the order


4th level I made an attack exactly like Tide of Iron - Had to use a shield, you hit and the try to shove them one square and move into square if you want. Shove just like in 5e PHB, (opposed roll) but no prone option.

No Opening once per round you cancel advantage against you from ONE attacker -

Thicket of Blades - Attack action - attack once everything in reach, if hit they are restrained. Once per rest

Chains of Sorrow - once per rest - you hit them and they give disadvantage for rest of round


Stuff like that
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Congratulations you took a light hearted joke at a cardboard stereotype and ran with it like it was a serious political essay. I have not seen an over reaction of this magnitude in quite a while. Besides what would be wrong with a simple class having choices like do I want to be a simple melee character or do I want to be a simple archer character. Ultimately....get over yourself, unless you want to keep playing the poor victim card.

This isn't the first time you've made comments like that, so I don't buy your innocent joke claim. After all, you're the same guy who recently said this:

Good base idea, just watch out for the triad alliance (Spellcaster Supremacy League, Grognards and H4ters). They tend to operate under the rule that martial characters cannot have nice things and will start off with claims of anything more than "I attack" doing hp damage is magic or is unbalanced on anything except for magic users. Be prepared for many a dishonest argument.

With your low post count, sure seems to me less of a "light hearted joke" and more of your MO.

And how wonderful of you, telling other people who don't agree with your insults to get over themselves. How about you just stop insulting them? Is that too much to ask? If you want to see who is playing the victim in this thread, it's probably the guy who keeps accusing others of always attacking them and trying to silence them. Hint, it's not me.

Thanks for confirming my earlier post. You are both selfish and insulting, wanting the game to be only how you want, and anyone who disagrees or wants something different is to be insulted.
 

bid

First Post
Level 20 Battle Master:

6d12 bonus damage from Maneuvers

(6*12+6)/2 = Average of 29 damage per short rest (ignoring Relentless which would just increase it further)
Nope, it's worst than that. {and it should have been 39 anyway}

Riposte: 2d6+5+1d12 * .65 = 12 per SD, 72 per short rest. {plus .7 crit, 76 overall}
Precision: 2d6+5+1d12 * ~.85 = 15.7 per SD, 94.35 per short rest.
Commander's rogue: 1d6+5+10d6+1d12 * .65 = 32.5 per SD, 195 per short rest

That's between 102 and 134 attack rolls, 25-33 rounds of combat at 4 attacks per rounds (278 rolls or 69 rounds with a pocket rogue). Without any short rest.

And it's still around 25 rounds at level 11.


The easy solution is to add an extra action surge at level 7, with remarkable athlete. That will match 2-4 SD used as riposte and leave little enough that the improved/superior critical can cover the rest.

They could also gain bonus attack on crit (like GWM does), it should take 17-21 rounds to match the SDs.
 
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Eubani

Legend
This isn't the first time you've made comments like that, so I don't buy your innocent joke claim. After all, you're the same guy who recently said this:



With your low post count, sure seems to me less of a "light hearted joke" and more of your MO.

And how wonderful of you, telling other people who don't agree with your insults to get over themselves. How about you just stop insulting them? Is that too much to ask? If you want to see who is playing the victim in this thread, it's probably the guy who keeps accusing others of always attacking them and trying to silence them. Hint, it's not me.

Thanks for confirming my earlier post. You are both selfish and insulting, wanting the game to be only how you want, and anyone who disagrees or wants something different is to be insulted.
You are being awfully selective like ignoring the post where I say that people who wanted a simple fighter should of got a whole class not just a subclass but that does not play into your narrative I suppose.
 

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