D&D General Would you like there to be a new publication of Dark Sun?

[Imaro]

Psionics is still shifted off to the side. It doesn't feel like just another leg on the table to me. Eberron more or less does the "Sarlona is the Psionic continent so the table is as Psionic as many times Sarlona things appear.

Eberron being decades old now also proves my point.

I don't think I'm getting your point around psionics... There is an entire continent along with a mythos for psionics in Eberron. I'm not sure why that would be considered shifted off to the side... its integrated into the setting.

As for Eberron being old... why does that matter if it achieves the goals you are looking for? Otherwise you're just reinventing the wheel.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I don't think I'm getting your point around psionics... There is an entire continent along with a mythos for psionics in Eberron. I'm not sure why that would be considered shifted off to the side... its integrated into the setting.

Because it's literally "off to the side" in Eberron.

Instead of psionics being something that permeates the entire setting, Eberron relegated them to a specific, different continent, with its own weirdness, which didn't really get any details at all until later books originally, and remains very much a side-place rather than one deeply important to the setting.

It's certainly fair to say Eberron isn't hostile to psionics nor attempting to negate them or whatever, but they are very much "off to the side" on a variety of levels. That's part of why it was so easy to make a 5E sourcebook for Eberron even without 5E having much in the way of psionics.

(I should note for the record that I don't think psionics are essential for Dark Sun - weirdness is - it's just psionics are an extremely good way to deliver that. Psionics-as-spells is a bad fit for Dark Sun though because it undermines the entire defiling/preserving theme with Arcane spells - given most "psionic spells" suggested in 5E are spells we originally think of as Arcane spells. If you can just cast all or most of the same spells but a different way, and be equally powerful and essentially using the same mechanics, that doesn't really work. Psionics as something different is what delivers the weird.)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Because it's literally "off to the side" in Eberron.

Instead of psionics being something that permeates the entire setting, Eberron relegated them to a specific, different continent, with its own weirdness, which didn't really get any details at all until later books originally, and remains very much a side-place rather than one deeply important to the setting.

It's certainly fair to say Eberron isn't hostile to psionics nor attempting to negate them or whatever, but they are very much "off to the side" on a variety of levels. That's part of why it was so easy to make a 5E sourcebook for Eberron even without 5E having much in the way of psionics.

Psionics in Dark Sun felt inescapable. Not only did you have to endure the scorching heat of Athas but the arduous 2E psionic system as well

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Psionics in Dark Sun felt inescapable. Not only did you have to endure the scorching heat of Athas but the arduous 2E psionic system as well

Honestly I feel like the alleged difficulty of the 2E psionics system is the most overhyped shenanigans in D&D history.

All these nerds who were perfectly happy with stuff like THAC0 (including the 1E version) and the unarmed combat table and stuff are pretending like this system is hard to handle? What a weak pretense. Some of you dudes were playing Rolemaster and stuff and trying to front like this is "hard"... pfffft.

Literally the only non-trivial thing about psionics was psionic combat, and that took like, one session to understand properly. Nowadays you'd just print out a cheat sheet or even have it semi-automated by an app.

 

[Imaro]

Because it's literally "off to the side" in Eberron.

Instead of psionics being something that permeates the entire setting, Eberron relegated them to a specific, different continent, with its own weirdness, which didn't really get any details at all until later books originally, and remains very much a side-place rather than one deeply important to the setting.

It's certainly fair to say Eberron isn't hostile to psionics nor attempting to negate them or whatever, but they are very much "off to the side" on a variety of levels. That's part of why it was so easy to make a 5E sourcebook for Eberron even without 5E having much in the way of psionics.

(I should note for the record that I don't think psionics are essential for Dark Sun - weirdness is - it's just psionics are an extremely good way to deliver that. Psionics-as-spells is a bad fit for Dark Sun though because it undermines the entire defiling/preserving theme with Arcane spells - given most "psionic spells" suggested in 5E are spells we originally think of as Arcane spells. If you can just cast all or most of the same spells but a different way, and be equally powerful and essentially using the same mechanics, that doesn't really work. Psionics as something different is what delivers the weird.)

Ok so the argument was for a setting that put psionics front and center vs. one that just has them integrated as part of their official lore... Eh, yeah WotC would have to have the rules for psionics done for something like this to work and be created... otherwise you'd have a magic w/psionic clothing setting. In other words its not a setting problem, its a rules/system issue.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Ok so the argument was for a setting that put psionics front and center vs. one that just has them integrated as part of their official lore... Eh, yeah WotC would have to have the rules for psionics done for something like this to work and be created... otherwise you'd have a magic w/psionic clothing setting. In other words its not a setting problem, its a rules/system issue.

I concur though I would still say it's 100% legit to describe psionics as "off to the side" in Eberron.

 

[RuinousPowers]

The time has come for everyone to just run Dark Sun using some version of RuneQuest or BRP rather than insisting on a complete rewrite of 5e to accommodate the setting's particulars.

 

[SteveC]

It seems to me that it's way past time for WotC to do a psionics system. I know that there have been a number of attempts at it, and there are some options available now (a friend is playing a Soulknife in our Dragon Heist campaign for instance).

Just doing a quick search on the interwebs, there are already systems out there, just pick one of them if the staff in house don't have the time to make it work.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Honestly I feel like the alleged difficulty of the 2E psionics system is the most overhyped shenanigans in D&D history.

All these nerds who were perfectly happy with stuff like THAC0 (including the 1E version) and the unarmed combat table and stuff are pretending like this system is hard to handle? What a weak pretense. Some of you dudes were playing Rolemaster and stuff and trying to front like this is "hard"... pfffft.

Literally the only non-trivial thing about psionics was psionic combat, and that took like, one session to understand properly. Nowadays you'd just print out a cheat sheet or even have it semi-automated by an app.

You make a fair point. I was half joking. But the main issue actually with Psionics from that era, at least from my memory, is there were some overpowered things in it you could get at early level (in fairness this was debated a lot so it isn't like everyone agreed) and it was a whole other system to learn on top of the existing magic system (which probably would haver been a challenge with any new psionic subsystem unless it were especially simple). I think the other aspect of this is its infrequent use. If you weren't playing Dark Sun, in most campaigns psionics only really came up with certain types of monsters. So it was a little like grapple in 3E where its infrequent use meant you looked it up and re-learned it each time (whereas wizard spells were used in every session all the time so it just baked into your brain more). My honest memory of the time was some players loved it, some found it challenging, and GMs were often annoyed by some of the power level spikes in it.

To you point about other aspects of 2E, it certainly wasn't doing anything that unusual in terms of that system. I have no issue with THAC0 and I have no issue (even welcome) different subsystems for unarmed combat, initiative, NWPs, etc. It wasn't a game built around a core mechanic, though the d20 roll was obviously the central thing, you had all these parts of the game that functioned and felt completely different (which I think has the advantage of literally feeling different, and of being easier in terms of designing it to work a particular way-----sometimes the d20+number against+modifier against TN in later editions felt like fitting a square peg in a round hole for certain actions to me.

Actually my biggest 2E pet peeve wasn't psionics, but the skills and powers book (which lots of people loved, but I always found it incredibly hard to incorporate into games as a GM without radically changing how things felt).

 

[Minigiant]

One thing I thing D&D missed was a good War of the Gods setting. If WOTC would create a setting of Divine vs Psionic vs Arcane vs Elemental/Shadow/Fiendish with Primal and Martials as neutrals, you could really really do a nice Sword and Sandals or Sword and Planet Setting. And it could steal a lot of the cool nonedgy tropes of Dark Sun.

 

[Stormonu]

I'll be honest

I only wanted Dark Sun because it required Psionics and WOTC would only make the Psion in 5e if a setting required Psions.

Outsideof that, Dark Sun felt like an edgy nonsense setting where a powerhungry DM used slavery and racism to excuse his class and race bans and railroading. Like it sounds like something you heard on RPG Horror Stories or a forum post from a player complaining about a DM.

If there was another setting that promoted Psionics I'd push that far over Dark Sun.

That makes about as much sense as saying the only reason people wanted to have Dragonlance back was for the DM to afflict players with Gully Dwarves

 

[Minigiant]

That makes about as much sense as saying the only reason people wanted to have Dragonlance back was for the DM to afflict players with Gully Dwarves

Gully Dwarves are not a major aspect of Dragonlance.

My point was that many of the aspects that attracts people to Dark Sun isn't special all in fantasy. Dark Sun just has an aura of uniqueness because WOTC has barely created any unique setting ideas for D&D with D&D in mind for over 2 decades.

On in simpler terms. If WOTC or TSR had made or pushed a third as many Magic Post Apocalypse settings or "Psionics is as big as Magic" settings and they made "Middle Earth but more magic and monster" settings, few would be talking about Dark Sun.

 

[Hussar]

It seems to me that it's way past time for WotC to do a psionics system. I know that there have been a number of attempts at it, and there are some options available now (a friend is playing a Soulknife in our Dragon Heist campaign for instance).

Just doing a quick search on the interwebs, there are already systems out there, just pick one of them if the staff in house don't have the time to make it work.

The Warlord has entered chat

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I have said other times in the past WotC will have to choose if they are going to allow other classes in the setting, for example ki martial adepts.

We don't know the level of fear about any possible toxic lobby. Maybe it is not our fault at all, or by WotC, but troubles linked with a new wave of moral panic could cause serious economic damages. Other potential controversy is the climate negationism. Here it is not fault by WotC but DS could be used as a satiric allegory by both sides. I repeat, the IP can suffer a serious damage in the prestige because it could be used as a propagandistic weapon by both sides.

The main reason for the delay is the "crunch" is not ready, and we have to await until the event with Vecna because WotC may be planning a reboot of the D&D multiverse.

Other reason is if WotC wants the lore of DS to allow space to create stories about warlords and their armies. And these not only need weapons and armors, but also water, food, medicines.. Have you played any strategy+citybuilding videogame?

Maybe it could return if Paramount believes it is too interesting to not produce an adaptation.

 

[Vaalingrade]

You keep using this word 'toxic'. I do not think it means what you think it does.

 

[squibbles]

I wonder if really it is so problematic, or really Hasbro fears some toxic lobby who proclaim itself to be "the voice of the people"

but no toxic-lobby would rather to complain against that megacorporation.

they will be stopped if they fear too much the complains by some toxic lobby who proclaims to be the voice of the people but they only want money.

We don't know the level of fear about any possible toxic lobby.

You keep using this word 'toxic'. I do not think it means what you think it does.

Hey so, I chose not to say anything earlier @LuisCarlos17f regarding the repeated mentions of a toxic lobby, since no one was really engaging with you about it. But now that @Vaalingrade is, I would, respectfully, like to ask you both--before it starts--not to resume the politics argument that keeps recurring in these Dark Sun threads, taking them to 40+ pages and getting them locked.

This thread is just meant to be here for the poll, which I think has run its course (since there's the same roughly 60/40 split now that there was at 50 votes, we largely know the community's answer to the question).

 

[Starfox]

I don't really care for Dark Sun and think it would subdivide the audience, so I'd prefer if it remained dead. This is just my subjective opinion, I respect that others like the setting, plz respect that I don't.

 

[BrokenTwin]

I loved Dark Sun as a setting. I also think it's part of a functionally dead genre that large parts of the current gaming culture are openly hostile towards, for a mix of reasons. And WotC's 5E would be a terrible system for it.

I would love for the IP to be released into the commons instead of being locked in an IP vault, but I have that opinion about a lot of IP that quite frankly has no business not being in the commons at this point.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Hasbro could make money with collabs in videogames, for example.

I guess after the even of Vecna and the black obelisks the D&D multiverse will be rebooted.... again. I like the idea of Athas being within the demiplane of the desolation, and later other worlds added to the "Athaspace". This could add enough flexibility if players want to add more classes or species.

Other option could be to create an ersatz or clone of Athaspace within Spelljammer. Then unlocking a new DS in DMGuild wouldn't be necessary yet.

Or DS could be published by other media, and later the TTRPG.

 

[squibbles]

I don't really care for Dark Sun and think it would subdivide the audience, so I'd prefer if it remained dead. This is just my subjective opinion, I respect that others like the setting, plz respect that I don't.

I appreciate that you replied. The whole point of the poll is to gauge how widespread your point of view is here on ENWorld, as compared to people who are fans or relatively positively disposed to the setting--and to do so without getting into an argument about it.

I loved Dark Sun as a setting. I also think it's part of a functionally dead genre that large parts of the current gaming culture are openly hostile towards, for a mix of reasons. And WotC's 5E would be a terrible system for it. [...]

What genre is that? I don't mean to be coy; to my thinking Dark Sun is a mix of sword and planet, sword and sorcery, swords and sandals, and post-apocalyptic fiction. Which of those genres do you view as unwelcome in the current gaming culture? (and why?)

That WotC would need to support, say, the sword and planet genre with appropriate optional rules and character options is a large part of why I would like to see them publish Dark Sun content in the future--even if 5e isn't the perfect fit, system-wise.